DIY Timing job.
06-23-2017, 10:09 PM
#61
LightningRod
I think I can safety speak for everyone. Ask _whatever_ you want, _whenever_ you want. Ignorance isn't a 'pre-existing' condition. It is contracted from not asking.
I agree with @Eric_Kleven, it is not 'nearly' as touchy or precious as you are perceiving. I also think the tool is a Mass Production thing - very likely because chains in a production line may not even have colored links. They could just SLAP chains on them and go. The crank tool can also keep things from moving if phaser bolts were being 'torqued' against chain tension - but I didn't do that. I used the phaser sprocket locking tool.
As for movement of the crank during the procedure - Just don't consciously move it while chains are NOT properly in place. I suspect - but IDK - 10 degrees probably wouldn't hurt anything - But it isn't going to be moving on its own and take reasonable care not to allow it. As far as getting chains on - you'll have to jockey things a little to get the marks aligned.
The BIG caution is - consciously set the engine to the proper position BEFORE chains are removed. [ Passenger Phaser will have timing mark on the top side and the fifth finger will be pointing down - verify by cam lobe positions on cyl #1 #5 ] Then put everything back the same way all ligned up - like: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/diy-tim...3/#post5362481
Another NOTE that hasn't been mentioned. If your existing chains have marks --- do not worry about them being aligned before tear down. Once the engine turns over one revolution, (even after you have properly installed & timed your chains), the chain marks will not lign up again for 122 full engine revolutions. Thats' because of the odd number of 21 Crank gear teeth / 42 Phaser gear teeth / and 61 chain links. THIS has screwed up more than a few guys after their timing job. https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...3/#post4475795
I agree with @Eric_Kleven, it is not 'nearly' as touchy or precious as you are perceiving. I also think the tool is a Mass Production thing - very likely because chains in a production line may not even have colored links. They could just SLAP chains on them and go. The crank tool can also keep things from moving if phaser bolts were being 'torqued' against chain tension - but I didn't do that. I used the phaser sprocket locking tool.
As for movement of the crank during the procedure - Just don't consciously move it while chains are NOT properly in place. I suspect - but IDK - 10 degrees probably wouldn't hurt anything - But it isn't going to be moving on its own and take reasonable care not to allow it. As far as getting chains on - you'll have to jockey things a little to get the marks aligned.
The BIG caution is - consciously set the engine to the proper position BEFORE chains are removed. [ Passenger Phaser will have timing mark on the top side and the fifth finger will be pointing down - verify by cam lobe positions on cyl #1 #5 ] Then put everything back the same way all ligned up - like: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/diy-tim...3/#post5362481
Another NOTE that hasn't been mentioned. If your existing chains have marks --- do not worry about them being aligned before tear down. Once the engine turns over one revolution, (even after you have properly installed & timed your chains), the chain marks will not lign up again for 122 full engine revolutions. Thats' because of the odd number of 21 Crank gear teeth / 42 Phaser gear teeth / and 61 chain links. THIS has screwed up more than a few guys after their timing job. https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...3/#post4475795
06-23-2017, 10:11 PM
#62
05 5.4l 3v s.crew lariat
I do appauld your desire to get this engine timing worked out in your head
Once you fairly get it then you will only have to fight the uncomfortable positions . I still play the engine working in my mind . I have looked up animations on engine to get some things ironed out.
But the timing is just a simple mechanical procedure like all things you have to accept some of it at first on faith . If crank stays at 6 o'clock and cams on 1 and 5 are correct facing you will be fine to put chains on . Just get some help putting chains on it is very helpful and only takes a few minutes. That way you don't have to mess with removing/reinstalling rollers . Just keep the non-tensioner side tight .
You will self check by rotating crank 2 rev's clockwise at the end by hand .
But the timing is just a simple mechanical procedure like all things you have to accept some of it at first on faith . If crank stays at 6 o'clock and cams on 1 and 5 are correct facing you will be fine to put chains on . Just get some help putting chains on it is very helpful and only takes a few minutes. That way you don't have to mess with removing/reinstalling rollers . Just keep the non-tensioner side tight .
You will self check by rotating crank 2 rev's clockwise at the end by hand .
06-24-2017, 01:27 PM
#63
I think I can safety speak for everyone. Ask _whatever_ you want, _whenever_ you want. Ignorance isn't a 'pre-existing' condition. It is contracted from not asking.
I agree with @Eric_Kleven, it is not 'nearly' as touchy or precious as you are perceiving. I also think the tool is a Mass Production thing - very likely because chains in a production line may not even have colored links. They could just SLAP chains on them and go. The crank tool can also keep things from moving if phaser bolts were being 'torqued' against chain tension - but I didn't do that. I used the phaser sprocket locking tool.
As for movement of the crank during the procedure - Just don't consciously move it while chains are NOT properly in place. I suspect - but IDK - 10 degrees probably wouldn't hurt anything - But it isn't going to be moving on its own and take reasonable care not to allow it. As far as getting chains on - you'll have to jockey things a little to get the marks aligned.
The BIG caution is - consciously set the engine to the proper position BEFORE chains are removed. [ Passenger Phaser will have timing mark on the top side and the fifth finger will be pointing down - verify by cam lobe positions on cyl #1 #5 ] Then put everything back the same way all ligned up - like: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/diy-tim...3/#post5362481
Another NOTE that hasn't been mentioned. If your existing chains have marks --- do not worry about them being aligned before tear down. Once the engine turns over one revolution, (even after you have properly installed & timed your chains), the chain marks will not lign up again for 122 full engine revolutions. Thats' because of the odd number of 21 Crank gear teeth / 42 Phaser gear teeth / and 61 chain links. THIS has screwed up more than a few guys after their timing job. https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...3/#post4475795
I agree with @Eric_Kleven, it is not 'nearly' as touchy or precious as you are perceiving. I also think the tool is a Mass Production thing - very likely because chains in a production line may not even have colored links. They could just SLAP chains on them and go. The crank tool can also keep things from moving if phaser bolts were being 'torqued' against chain tension - but I didn't do that. I used the phaser sprocket locking tool.
As for movement of the crank during the procedure - Just don't consciously move it while chains are NOT properly in place. I suspect - but IDK - 10 degrees probably wouldn't hurt anything - But it isn't going to be moving on its own and take reasonable care not to allow it. As far as getting chains on - you'll have to jockey things a little to get the marks aligned.
The BIG caution is - consciously set the engine to the proper position BEFORE chains are removed. [ Passenger Phaser will have timing mark on the top side and the fifth finger will be pointing down - verify by cam lobe positions on cyl #1 #5 ] Then put everything back the same way all ligned up - like: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/diy-tim...3/#post5362481
Another NOTE that hasn't been mentioned. If your existing chains have marks --- do not worry about them being aligned before tear down. Once the engine turns over one revolution, (even after you have properly installed & timed your chains), the chain marks will not lign up again for 122 full engine revolutions. Thats' because of the odd number of 21 Crank gear teeth / 42 Phaser gear teeth / and 61 chain links. THIS has screwed up more than a few guys after their timing job. https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...3/#post4475795
06-24-2017, 01:32 PM
#64
Once you fairly get it then you will only have to fight the uncomfortable positions . I still play the engine working in my mind . I have looked up animations on engine to get some things ironed out.
But the timing is just a simple mechanical procedure like all things you have to accept some of it at first on faith . If crank stays at 6 o'clock and cams on 1 and 5 are correct facing you will be fine to put chains on . Just get some help putting chains on it is very helpful and only takes a few minutes. That way you don't have to mess with removing/reinstalling rollers . Just keep the non-tensioner side tight .
You will self check by rotating crank 2 rev's clockwise at the end by hand .
But the timing is just a simple mechanical procedure like all things you have to accept some of it at first on faith . If crank stays at 6 o'clock and cams on 1 and 5 are correct facing you will be fine to put chains on . Just get some help putting chains on it is very helpful and only takes a few minutes. That way you don't have to mess with removing/reinstalling rollers . Just keep the non-tensioner side tight .
You will self check by rotating crank 2 rev's clockwise at the end by hand .
06-24-2017, 01:50 PM
#65
I think I can safety speak for everyone. Ask _whatever_ you want, _whenever_ you want. Ignorance isn't a 'pre-existing' condition. It is contracted from not asking.
I agree with @Eric_Kleven, it is not 'nearly' as touchy or precious as you are perceiving. I also think the tool is a Mass Production thing - very likely because chains in a production line may not even have colored links. They could just SLAP chains on them and go. The crank tool can also keep things from moving if phaser bolts were being 'torqued' against chain tension - but I didn't do that. I used the phaser sprocket locking tool.
As for movement of the crank during the procedure - Just don't consciously move it while chains are NOT properly in place. I suspect - but IDK - 10 degrees probably wouldn't hurt anything - But it isn't going to be moving on its own and take reasonable care not to allow it. As far as getting chains on - you'll have to jockey things a little to get the marks aligned.
The BIG caution is - consciously set the engine to the proper position BEFORE chains are removed. [ Passenger Phaser will have timing mark on the top side and the fifth finger will be pointing down - verify by cam lobe positions on cyl #1 #5 ] Then put everything back the same way all ligned up - like: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/diy-tim...3/#post5362481
Another NOTE that hasn't been mentioned. If your existing chains have marks --- do not worry about them being aligned before tear down. Once the engine turns over one revolution, (even after you have properly installed & timed your chains), the chain marks will not lign up again for 122 full engine revolutions. Thats' because of the odd number of 21 Crank gear teeth / 42 Phaser gear teeth / and 61 chain links. THIS has screwed up more than a few guys after their timing job. https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...3/#post4475795
I agree with @Eric_Kleven, it is not 'nearly' as touchy or precious as you are perceiving. I also think the tool is a Mass Production thing - very likely because chains in a production line may not even have colored links. They could just SLAP chains on them and go. The crank tool can also keep things from moving if phaser bolts were being 'torqued' against chain tension - but I didn't do that. I used the phaser sprocket locking tool.
As for movement of the crank during the procedure - Just don't consciously move it while chains are NOT properly in place. I suspect - but IDK - 10 degrees probably wouldn't hurt anything - But it isn't going to be moving on its own and take reasonable care not to allow it. As far as getting chains on - you'll have to jockey things a little to get the marks aligned.
The BIG caution is - consciously set the engine to the proper position BEFORE chains are removed. [ Passenger Phaser will have timing mark on the top side and the fifth finger will be pointing down - verify by cam lobe positions on cyl #1 #5 ] Then put everything back the same way all ligned up - like: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/diy-tim...3/#post5362481
Another NOTE that hasn't been mentioned. If your existing chains have marks --- do not worry about them being aligned before tear down. Once the engine turns over one revolution, (even after you have properly installed & timed your chains), the chain marks will not lign up again for 122 full engine revolutions. Thats' because of the odd number of 21 Crank gear teeth / 42 Phaser gear teeth / and 61 chain links. THIS has screwed up more than a few guys after their timing job. https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...3/#post4475795
06-24-2017, 03:00 PM
#66
LightningRod
Two ways. Use large vice grips on 'non-lobe' surfaces of the Camshaft, _OR_ use an old cam chain wrapped around the phaser gear and clamped to the engine block under any front cover bolt with a large flat washer. I prefer the latter method as being more like the phaser locking tool and minimizes shear forces on the cam alignment pin on the back-side of the phaser. They _have_ 'been known' to fail, and that last 90 degrees torque to yield on the phaser bolt - took ALL the strength I could muster with the breaker bar. Of course, you're certainly stronger than I am, but your phaser alignment pin is the same. Lol
06-24-2017, 03:41 PM
#67
Two ways. Use large vice grips on 'non-lobe' surfaces of the Camshaft, _OR_ use an old cam chain wrapped around the phaser gear and clamped to the engine block under any front cover bolt with a large flat washer. I prefer the latter method as being more like the phaser locking tool and minimizes shear forces on the cam alignment pin on the back-side of the phaser. They _have_ 'been known' to fail, and that last 90 degrees torque to yield on the phaser bolt - took ALL the strength I could muster with the breaker bar. Of course, you're certainly stronger than I am, but your phaser alignment pin is the same. Lol
06-24-2017, 06:44 PM
#68
05 5.4l 3v s.crew lariat
If you are replacing all rollers /lifters there is no need to take out certain ones
Just Set cams 1 and 5 facing correctly .and 6 oclock crank gear dot , mark your non lobe cam surface with the head for reference.You don't need to look for any marks on chains . Take chains off or take phasors off with chains on using vise grips,It is best to get phasors off before you pull cams , pull cams by loosening bolts a little at a time from the center out . But remember all cam journals must be marked and go back exactly where they came out .
The reason you manually check 2 clockwise revs of the crank is to make sure you didn't make a big mistake, 2 turns makes a complete 4 stroke cycle. .Some people are not good at self checking and double checking . Others go in here and just throw it together without due care by taking it too lightly . If you have piston to valve contact it is not going to turn . If you started it like this you would bend a valve /put hole in piston . That is the biggest fear when doing timing job . I would never skip this test .
Foreign cars use a timing belt, failure to change it around 60k runs the risk of breaking it and damaging all the pistons and valves .
Like I said I prefer the toothed phasor holding tool , you have to use it at least 4 times during this job . But you can use vise grips or do like f150t says with old chain .
The reason we advise setting the timing points up before you take chains off is to prevent getting into a position of pushing a valve into a piston . Even if it was out of time it isn't far enough to get into trouble so what if it jumped 2-4 teeth .You have to be off quite a ways for any serious trouble . That's why your cam reference marks are just a guide, your colored links and setup will correct any jump you might have had . My reference marks told me that mine had jumped time . They did not quite line up when I put the new chains on correctly. Plus you have to realise chains wear stretch .
If you are going to use vise grips keep in mind your reference marks could get removed by them .
I guess you are beginning to see there is more than one way to do this job . That expensive roller removal tool is for one guy with no help trying to make it so there is no spring tension as he is installing chains . Not worth it at all .
I believe once you get a good start a lot of your concerns will fall in place . The fear of the unknown is worse than the real thing .
The reason you manually check 2 clockwise revs of the crank is to make sure you didn't make a big mistake, 2 turns makes a complete 4 stroke cycle. .Some people are not good at self checking and double checking . Others go in here and just throw it together without due care by taking it too lightly . If you have piston to valve contact it is not going to turn . If you started it like this you would bend a valve /put hole in piston . That is the biggest fear when doing timing job . I would never skip this test .
Foreign cars use a timing belt, failure to change it around 60k runs the risk of breaking it and damaging all the pistons and valves .
Like I said I prefer the toothed phasor holding tool , you have to use it at least 4 times during this job . But you can use vise grips or do like f150t says with old chain .
The reason we advise setting the timing points up before you take chains off is to prevent getting into a position of pushing a valve into a piston . Even if it was out of time it isn't far enough to get into trouble so what if it jumped 2-4 teeth .You have to be off quite a ways for any serious trouble . That's why your cam reference marks are just a guide, your colored links and setup will correct any jump you might have had . My reference marks told me that mine had jumped time . They did not quite line up when I put the new chains on correctly. Plus you have to realise chains wear stretch .
If you are going to use vise grips keep in mind your reference marks could get removed by them .
I guess you are beginning to see there is more than one way to do this job . That expensive roller removal tool is for one guy with no help trying to make it so there is no spring tension as he is installing chains . Not worth it at all .
I believe once you get a good start a lot of your concerns will fall in place . The fear of the unknown is worse than the real thing .
06-24-2017, 10:45 PM
#69
Well tomorrow is the big day, I got my timing kit, and 360 oil pump today in the mail, kinda excited and nervous at the same time. No phaser locking tool, do I wait and buy one before tackling this job and risk another week of riding the motorcycle in the rain back and forth to work or do I do this with the old chains and vice grips??? On the plus side went and bought new torque ratchets foot and inch pounds and wheel puller for the crankshaft pulley ......hummmmmm....
06-25-2017, 09:03 AM
#70
Well tomorrow is the big day, I got my timing kit, and 360 oil pump today in the mail, kinda excited and nervous at the same time. No phaser locking tool, do I wait and buy one before tackling this job and risk another week of riding the motorcycle in the rain back and forth to work or do I do this with the old chains and vice grips??? On the plus side went and bought new torque ratchets foot and inch pounds and wheel puller for the crankshaft pulley ......hummmmmm....