Can't get rid of "Check Engine Light" Please Help!
05-21-2016, 07:24 PM
#1
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Can't get rid of "Check Engine Light" Please Help!
I'm new to this Forum and I have a 2004 F-150 XLT 5.4 with a check engine light that I have been battling for about a 5 days. (I bought the truck last Saturday)The code is a P0012 and I have replaced the VCT Solenoid, the Cam Position Sensor and put in a quart of Lucas Oil Conditioner to thicken it to see if it's an oil pressure problem.
Because of the P0012 Code, the truck won't complete it's Drive Cycle, so I also have a P1000 Code.
I think if I can get the first problem corrected, the P1000 will not be an issue.
The previous owner says he did the complete Timing Chain, Tensioners, Guides and Phasers. (who knows?)
I'm at the point where I am going to pull the Valve Covers and Timing Cover off just to confirm, unless any one has had a similar problem and found a solution.
Please help,
Dave B.
05-22-2016, 11:14 AM
#2
LightningRod
OBDII Readiness test
@Burdedw
Sorry to hear about your situation. It reminds me of the experience with the purchase of my wife's car - (Check Engine light the day after taking delivery - after we had test driven the car three times over a ten day period). My diagnostics convinced me the Stealership was resetting the codes between my test drives!!! Sounds like your seller may have done the same thing.
But your P1000 code is likely ONLY related to the P0012 code because of repeated, frequent clearing of codes. There MAY be SOMETHNIG else preventing the OBDII system from completing all monitor tests. IF so, the procedure in the ATTACHED document will help cure the P1000 code so you can find out if other things are going on. [credits OBDII.COM]
Your post did not mention if engine oil weight is known (except the Lucas addition), or mileage, or other symptoms - such as typical 5.4 phaser noises. But, thicker oil (beyond a early point) is not the answer on these engines. There are VERY fine filter screens in the VCT Solenoids (and another in the VCT Solenoid Body) that needs thin oil to pass it to operate the phaser. IF - the previous owner did, in fact, do a timing chain job, it is possible good cleanliness was not observed and dirty fingers allowed junk to get into the small oil passageways. The SLIGHEST trash can hinder proper phaser operation. And once something gets into one - there is no way for it to get out (hence the purpose of the small VCT screens).
I would do a "THOUROUGH, THOUROUGH" engine flush, followed by oil / filter change with Motorcraft filter and clean, synthetic oil no heaver than 5w30. If the P0012 code comes back, I would THEN remove the VCT Solenoid and check its screens and operation (or replace it if previous owner did not). If neither of those get rid of the P0012, you'll probably have to pull the valve cover as you suggest. Hopefully you can borescope the front cover and verify guides / tensioners / chains are all good.
Good Luck
Sorry to hear about your situation. It reminds me of the experience with the purchase of my wife's car - (Check Engine light the day after taking delivery - after we had test driven the car three times over a ten day period). My diagnostics convinced me the Stealership was resetting the codes between my test drives!!! Sounds like your seller may have done the same thing.
But your P1000 code is likely ONLY related to the P0012 code because of repeated, frequent clearing of codes. There MAY be SOMETHNIG else preventing the OBDII system from completing all monitor tests. IF so, the procedure in the ATTACHED document will help cure the P1000 code so you can find out if other things are going on. [credits OBDII.COM]
Your post did not mention if engine oil weight is known (except the Lucas addition), or mileage, or other symptoms - such as typical 5.4 phaser noises. But, thicker oil (beyond a early point) is not the answer on these engines. There are VERY fine filter screens in the VCT Solenoids (and another in the VCT Solenoid Body) that needs thin oil to pass it to operate the phaser. IF - the previous owner did, in fact, do a timing chain job, it is possible good cleanliness was not observed and dirty fingers allowed junk to get into the small oil passageways. The SLIGHEST trash can hinder proper phaser operation. And once something gets into one - there is no way for it to get out (hence the purpose of the small VCT screens).
I would do a "THOUROUGH, THOUROUGH" engine flush, followed by oil / filter change with Motorcraft filter and clean, synthetic oil no heaver than 5w30. If the P0012 code comes back, I would THEN remove the VCT Solenoid and check its screens and operation (or replace it if previous owner did not). If neither of those get rid of the P0012, you'll probably have to pull the valve cover as you suggest. Hopefully you can borescope the front cover and verify guides / tensioners / chains are all good.
Good Luck
05-22-2016, 11:30 AM
#3
Senior Member
This is my OPINION, but I wouldn't get too carried away trying to "flush" the oiling system of a 12 year old engine. You're likely to cause more problems than you cure. I do agree that the underlying cause is quite possibly trash in the various screens, but there is no way to eliminate it short of physical removal. Its probably plastic from the old guides. My $.02
05-22-2016, 12:03 PM
#4
LightningRod
I would normally agree whole heartedly, with a couple of caveats. The OP has already replaced the VCT Solenoids and CPS within the last week with code returning, leading me to wonder if it could very likely be bank 1 phaser gummed up - not returning all the way to its base advanced position. If the flush is to cause more problems - seems it would likely be of the same type he already has, so almost all bets are off already. Hopefully removing the solenoids afterwards might show evidence of that. Finally - the filter should be catching / removing plastic from old guides, and it is very hard for foreign material to "ENTER" oil galleys post filter (except when opened up) due to small exit orifices and against normal operating pressures.
I couldn't think of much more that could be tried other than replacing bank 1 phaser. That's a tough judgment call.
05-22-2016, 08:56 PM
#5
Senior Member
True enough, after reading that I would agree its kind of at the "no foul" stage at this point. After giving it some more thought it would almost have to be a stuck phaser (or the cam is actually a tooth late) because a lack of oil pressure would cause the cam to remain "defaulted" to its advanced position --- assuming the phaser isn't stuck of course. Gotta love the 5.4. It sure looked good on the drawing board.
Mines actually been absolutely trouble free, but it "only" has 122K and gets religious 5K oil changes with MC 5w-20 semi-syn and FL-820s. Also does a lot of distance driving, not much stop and go so it doesn't get much moisture/acid accumulation in the oil.
Mines actually been absolutely trouble free, but it "only" has 122K and gets religious 5K oil changes with MC 5w-20 semi-syn and FL-820s. Also does a lot of distance driving, not much stop and go so it doesn't get much moisture/acid accumulation in the oil.
05-23-2016, 09:00 AM
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Thank you all for the very good advice!
I agree that even though the VCT Solenoids are new and supposedly so are both Phasers, I am going to remove both Valve Covers and do the Lock Out on both (ordered the Kit last night) I think that since the truck runs so well that the cam timing is most likely correct, but is there a way to confirm that with the Valve Covers removed?
I think the Bank 1 Phaser is not going to the fully advanced position and is setting the P0012 code. I did change the oil and used Motorcraft 5-20 and a Motorcraft Filter. No change. I think I feel a slight vibration at about 45 MPH that maybe the Phaser chattering, so locking them should cure that. It's very faint, but it could be the problem. Thanks again for all the advice!
David
I agree that even though the VCT Solenoids are new and supposedly so are both Phasers, I am going to remove both Valve Covers and do the Lock Out on both (ordered the Kit last night) I think that since the truck runs so well that the cam timing is most likely correct, but is there a way to confirm that with the Valve Covers removed?
I think the Bank 1 Phaser is not going to the fully advanced position and is setting the P0012 code. I did change the oil and used Motorcraft 5-20 and a Motorcraft Filter. No change. I think I feel a slight vibration at about 45 MPH that maybe the Phaser chattering, so locking them should cure that. It's very faint, but it could be the problem. Thanks again for all the advice!
David
05-23-2016, 12:12 PM
#7
LightningRod
@Burdedw
Be careful not to be mesmerized by the Livernois lockout "cures everything" advertising. @PerryB could very well be right when he said "(or the cam is actually a tooth late)". Especially where someone ELSE has been in there doing a timing job. If _THAT_ be the case, the standard procedure for installing "lockouts" (where you mark the phaser position and reinstall them in the same position - with lockouts installed) would simply leave you with the problem except the P00XX phaser codes are removed by the Livernois tune.
Your latter report that ".. the truck runs so well.." tends to refute that theory. Plus, I believe, a full tooth off on bank 1 would be creating a different code - such as P0340 or P0344. According to the Motorcraft OBDII theory manual, P0012 is set if retard is >5º CKS for >5 seconds. I think a full tooth would be greater than 5 crankshaft degrees, and based on helping a forum member work through 8 forum pages trying to solve such a code, we found it had jumped a tooth AFTER going all the way through replacing the PCM. I was blown away based on the published descriptions of the codes thinking they were only 'circuit' oriented.
Nevertheless, considering all the above symptoms and posts, if I were in your shoes - (Although I have never actually done it), I would be trying everything I could think of to determine if the chain timing was correct on Bank 1 ---- Using Bank 2 and all known constants I could gather from the engine ---- before I unbolted a phaser. If I determined timing chain was in fact on correct (and the Phaser's aren't Dorman), I would replace ONLY the Bank 1 phaser with a good OEM unit (about $255).
Just my $.02. (My disclaimer): I'm not a fan of lockouts because I have extensively monitored phaser operation with Torque Pro and see that a wide majority of the time the PCM is applying some degree of retard, and often times a LOT. Full advance (Livernois lockout position) is actually the exception in VVT operation. (@ idle, under low RPM heavy load, or accelerating into a freeway). Almost ALL other conditions, the cams are retarded to some degree. https://www.f150forum.com/f4/phaser-...2/#post4722139
But in any event, the next step, I do believe you are to the point where the RH VC is going to have to be removed to have a look-see or something with the phaser.
Good luck, and DO please give us feedback what you find.
Be careful not to be mesmerized by the Livernois lockout "cures everything" advertising. @PerryB could very well be right when he said "(or the cam is actually a tooth late)". Especially where someone ELSE has been in there doing a timing job. If _THAT_ be the case, the standard procedure for installing "lockouts" (where you mark the phaser position and reinstall them in the same position - with lockouts installed) would simply leave you with the problem except the P00XX phaser codes are removed by the Livernois tune.
Your latter report that ".. the truck runs so well.." tends to refute that theory. Plus, I believe, a full tooth off on bank 1 would be creating a different code - such as P0340 or P0344. According to the Motorcraft OBDII theory manual, P0012 is set if retard is >5º CKS for >5 seconds. I think a full tooth would be greater than 5 crankshaft degrees, and based on helping a forum member work through 8 forum pages trying to solve such a code, we found it had jumped a tooth AFTER going all the way through replacing the PCM. I was blown away based on the published descriptions of the codes thinking they were only 'circuit' oriented.
Nevertheless, considering all the above symptoms and posts, if I were in your shoes - (Although I have never actually done it), I would be trying everything I could think of to determine if the chain timing was correct on Bank 1 ---- Using Bank 2 and all known constants I could gather from the engine ---- before I unbolted a phaser. If I determined timing chain was in fact on correct (and the Phaser's aren't Dorman), I would replace ONLY the Bank 1 phaser with a good OEM unit (about $255).
Just my $.02. (My disclaimer): I'm not a fan of lockouts because I have extensively monitored phaser operation with Torque Pro and see that a wide majority of the time the PCM is applying some degree of retard, and often times a LOT. Full advance (Livernois lockout position) is actually the exception in VVT operation. (@ idle, under low RPM heavy load, or accelerating into a freeway). Almost ALL other conditions, the cams are retarded to some degree. https://www.f150forum.com/f4/phaser-...2/#post4722139
But in any event, the next step, I do believe you are to the point where the RH VC is going to have to be removed to have a look-see or something with the phaser.
Good luck, and DO please give us feedback what you find.
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05-23-2016, 01:38 PM
#8
Senior Member
First
STOP WASTING MONEY!
Seriously, you don't know what the issue is and you are just throwing parts at it and hoping for the best. Including a very wasteful ordering of a lock out kit.
Do you understand what a lock out kit is doing? You are now losing more money by a lose of mpg, hp and tq.
A lockout kit is like breaking a leg and deciding it is easier to cut it off then cast it up and let it heal.
Our trucks run for hundreds of thousands of miles with proper maintenance and repair.
What you need is to spend some money on a good mechanic with a real scan tool.
"P" codes are generic codes that manufacturers are forced to have available to the general public. Behind that are manufacturer specific codes and live data that changes the diagnostic game completely.
If you had gone to a good mechanic and paid for two hours of diagnostic time you would have been money ahead by now.
I cannot say this enough. I completely agree with being the shadetree mechanic and doing your own work. However there are limitations at times and trying to guess your way through it gets frustrating and expensive.
However, while we are guessing I want in
My guess is the former owner may have actually done the work he said was done but used Dorman parts and like many others have seen, it is failing already.
A proper scan tool will dial in the cause much closer and give you a better idea of where to start digging.
Don't cut the leg off, fix it.
STOP WASTING MONEY!
Seriously, you don't know what the issue is and you are just throwing parts at it and hoping for the best. Including a very wasteful ordering of a lock out kit.
Do you understand what a lock out kit is doing? You are now losing more money by a lose of mpg, hp and tq.
A lockout kit is like breaking a leg and deciding it is easier to cut it off then cast it up and let it heal.
Our trucks run for hundreds of thousands of miles with proper maintenance and repair.
What you need is to spend some money on a good mechanic with a real scan tool.
"P" codes are generic codes that manufacturers are forced to have available to the general public. Behind that are manufacturer specific codes and live data that changes the diagnostic game completely.
If you had gone to a good mechanic and paid for two hours of diagnostic time you would have been money ahead by now.
I cannot say this enough. I completely agree with being the shadetree mechanic and doing your own work. However there are limitations at times and trying to guess your way through it gets frustrating and expensive.
However, while we are guessing I want in
My guess is the former owner may have actually done the work he said was done but used Dorman parts and like many others have seen, it is failing already. A proper scan tool will dial in the cause much closer and give you a better idea of where to start digging.
Don't cut the leg off, fix it.
05-23-2016, 02:59 PM
#9
LightningRod
@Dirttracker18
I think we are saying just about the same thing but in a somewhat different tone. And I am willing to completely buy into your 'guess' about the prior repair using Dorman Parts. But we part ways on a couple of areas:
The operative term here is a "good mechanic". And THAT doesn't necessarily mean a dealership with a Ford IDS System. @Burdedw isn't alone in having thrown parts at a problem - please don't ask how I know. But there are plenty of examples RIGHT HERE where "good mechanics" and "dealerships" have told guys they need a new motor at $8,500 to $10,000 after running their fancy two hours of "paid for" diagnostics. Then ONLY for the forum guy to find out its something simple. See the rather lengthy post here: http://www.fordf150.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=77858
And, please don't knock our Torque Pro scan tool. The "P" code it is giving him is the same one any scan tool would. After that, it is proper application of good logic to sort out the effects of many different possible failure scenarios. Other than the CMP sensor (which he swapped), there are no other sensor outputs available to see WHY THE RIGHT BANK CAM IS OVER-RETARDED (specifically > 5 crankshaft degrees for greater than 5 seconds).
This condition "WILL" result in unbalanced Fuel Trims ----- Which he can check with Torque Pro. Good example of that is here: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/p0172-s...9/#post4744357
But if results are TRUE - and I suspect it would be (because of the presence of the P0012 code), still need to remove RH VC and check things related to Bank 1 Phaser.
As I mentioned - when I got there, if I saw Dorman, they would turn into OEM Phasers in the amount of time it took me to change them - after figuring out the chains are in proper time (if possible without removing the TC). ///// If I was going to lock the phasers out, I would just JAM a bolt or something inside the ones that are there, put them back on, unplug both VCT Solenoids, and run with it forever ////
EDIT: //// Reason I say that //// is the experience of this forum member:http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/14...l#post16198833
I think we are saying just about the same thing but in a somewhat different tone. And I am willing to completely buy into your 'guess' about the prior repair using Dorman Parts. But we part ways on a couple of areas:
The operative term here is a "good mechanic". And THAT doesn't necessarily mean a dealership with a Ford IDS System. @Burdedw isn't alone in having thrown parts at a problem - please don't ask how I know. But there are plenty of examples RIGHT HERE where "good mechanics" and "dealerships" have told guys they need a new motor at $8,500 to $10,000 after running their fancy two hours of "paid for" diagnostics. Then ONLY for the forum guy to find out its something simple. See the rather lengthy post here: http://www.fordf150.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=77858
And, please don't knock our Torque Pro scan tool. The "P" code it is giving him is the same one any scan tool would. After that, it is proper application of good logic to sort out the effects of many different possible failure scenarios. Other than the CMP sensor (which he swapped), there are no other sensor outputs available to see WHY THE RIGHT BANK CAM IS OVER-RETARDED (specifically > 5 crankshaft degrees for greater than 5 seconds).
This condition "WILL" result in unbalanced Fuel Trims ----- Which he can check with Torque Pro. Good example of that is here: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/p0172-s...9/#post4744357
But if results are TRUE - and I suspect it would be (because of the presence of the P0012 code), still need to remove RH VC and check things related to Bank 1 Phaser.
As I mentioned - when I got there, if I saw Dorman, they would turn into OEM Phasers in the amount of time it took me to change them - after figuring out the chains are in proper time (if possible without removing the TC). ///// If I was going to lock the phasers out, I would just JAM a bolt or something inside the ones that are there, put them back on, unplug both VCT Solenoids, and run with it forever ////
EDIT: //// Reason I say that //// is the experience of this forum member:http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/14...l#post16198833
Last edited by F150Torqued; 05-23-2016 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Added last Link
05-23-2016, 04:32 PM
#10
Senior Member
@Dirttracker18
I think we are saying just about the same thing but in a somewhat different tone. And I am willing to completely buy into your 'guess' about the prior repair using Dorman Parts. But we part ways on a couple of areas:
The operative term here is a "good mechanic". And THAT doesn't necessarily mean a dealership with a Ford IDS System. @Burdedw isn't alone in having thrown parts at a problem - please don't ask how I know. But there are plenty of examples RIGHT HERE where "good mechanics" and "dealerships" have told guys they need a new motor at $8,500 to $10,000 after running their fancy two hours of "paid for" diagnostics. Then ONLY for the forum guy to find out its something simple. See the rather lengthy post here: http://www.fordf150.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=77858
no question there, dealership does not equate to a good mechanic. There are good, bad and OK mechs at dealers and indy shops. Please don't think I was referring him to a dealer necessarily.
And, please don't knock our Torque Pro scan tool. The "P" code it is giving him is the same one any scan tool would. After that, it is proper application of good logic to sort out the effects of many different possible failure scenarios. Other than the CMP sensor (which he swapped), there are no other sensor outputs available to see WHY THE RIGHT BANK CAM IS OVER-RETARDED (specifically > 5 crankshaft degrees for greater than 5 seconds).
Don't get me wrong as I own a cheap scanner as well. They are a handy tool and good ones require expensive updates for different vehicles. This is well outside the scope of most of the backyard mechanics. However, as I bolded above, you do have an error. The lesser scanner do only read "P" codes and that is helpful but a full scan tool will read dealer codes as well and that is the difference between working with your eyes open or closed. It is truly night and day for diagnostics. As I said I do not have one myself but have access to more than one. Generally I do not borrow one, not that I would ask to borrow such an expensive piece, I pay for the very worthwhile time of the trusted mechanics that do have one. Money well spent.
I am not advocating going that route every time, but if you are not absolutely certain of the issue, you are guessing and throwing parts at it hoping something sticks, time and money well wasted.
However good diag goes beyond just a scan tool. A good mechanic has a multitude of tools at his disposal not the least of which is knowledge and experience.
This condition "WILL" result in unbalanced Fuel Trims ----- Which he can check with Torque Pro. Good example of that is here: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/p0172-s...9/#post4744357
But if results are TRUE - and I suspect it would be (because of the presence of the P0012 code), still need to remove RH VC and check things related to Bank 1 Phaser.
As I mentioned - when I got there, if I saw Dorman, they would turn into OEM Phasers in the amount of time it took me to change them - after figuring out the chains are in proper time (if possible without removing the TC). ///// If I was going to lock the phasers out, I would just JAM a bolt or something inside the ones that are there, put them back on, unplug both VCT Solenoids, and run with it forever ////
EDIT: //// Reason I say that //// is the experience of this forum member:http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/14...l#post16198833
I think we are saying just about the same thing but in a somewhat different tone. And I am willing to completely buy into your 'guess' about the prior repair using Dorman Parts. But we part ways on a couple of areas:
The operative term here is a "good mechanic". And THAT doesn't necessarily mean a dealership with a Ford IDS System. @Burdedw isn't alone in having thrown parts at a problem - please don't ask how I know. But there are plenty of examples RIGHT HERE where "good mechanics" and "dealerships" have told guys they need a new motor at $8,500 to $10,000 after running their fancy two hours of "paid for" diagnostics. Then ONLY for the forum guy to find out its something simple. See the rather lengthy post here: http://www.fordf150.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=77858
no question there, dealership does not equate to a good mechanic. There are good, bad and OK mechs at dealers and indy shops. Please don't think I was referring him to a dealer necessarily.
And, please don't knock our Torque Pro scan tool. The "P" code it is giving him is the same one any scan tool would. After that, it is proper application of good logic to sort out the effects of many different possible failure scenarios. Other than the CMP sensor (which he swapped), there are no other sensor outputs available to see WHY THE RIGHT BANK CAM IS OVER-RETARDED (specifically > 5 crankshaft degrees for greater than 5 seconds).
Don't get me wrong as I own a cheap scanner as well. They are a handy tool and good ones require expensive updates for different vehicles. This is well outside the scope of most of the backyard mechanics. However, as I bolded above, you do have an error. The lesser scanner do only read "P" codes and that is helpful but a full scan tool will read dealer codes as well and that is the difference between working with your eyes open or closed. It is truly night and day for diagnostics. As I said I do not have one myself but have access to more than one. Generally I do not borrow one, not that I would ask to borrow such an expensive piece, I pay for the very worthwhile time of the trusted mechanics that do have one. Money well spent.
I am not advocating going that route every time, but if you are not absolutely certain of the issue, you are guessing and throwing parts at it hoping something sticks, time and money well wasted.
However good diag goes beyond just a scan tool. A good mechanic has a multitude of tools at his disposal not the least of which is knowledge and experience.
This condition "WILL" result in unbalanced Fuel Trims ----- Which he can check with Torque Pro. Good example of that is here: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/p0172-s...9/#post4744357
But if results are TRUE - and I suspect it would be (because of the presence of the P0012 code), still need to remove RH VC and check things related to Bank 1 Phaser.
As I mentioned - when I got there, if I saw Dorman, they would turn into OEM Phasers in the amount of time it took me to change them - after figuring out the chains are in proper time (if possible without removing the TC). ///// If I was going to lock the phasers out, I would just JAM a bolt or something inside the ones that are there, put them back on, unplug both VCT Solenoids, and run with it forever ////
EDIT: //// Reason I say that //// is the experience of this forum member:http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/14...l#post16198833
Overall I want people to realize their limitations and the value of finding that good mechanic you can trust. I have a handful, some happen to be dealer techs and some are indy guys. I also have less expensive guys that I send people to for simple work.
There is a time and a place and the OP missed his. The forum can help and it does. However if you are not certain of the issue, guessing and buying parts is a waste of time and money.
