5.4 top end rebuild, still running bad
 

I am aware there are many threads discussing 5.4 Triton rebuilds. However, mine is somewhat specific.

At 185,00 miles, I decided to take my 2007 F-150 in to my local mechanic due to to my timing chain slap. We discussed that the tensioner was most likely going out. So I went ahead and told him to tear into it. Once he got in there, the tensioner most definitely was bad which had created way too much slack. He also discovered a burnt spot in my head gasket and a broken VVT. Basically, I was keeping my motor from destruction based off of hopes and dreams.

On the first round of repair, he replaced the timing tensioner, timing guides, and both VVT's. While he had everything torn apart, he had the heads reworked, new head gaskets of course, new water pump, and topped it all off with new plugs. Im most likely missing some things I had replaced, but that's the gist of it. Around $3k later, I get my truck back and she's running good.

Fast forward about a month or so. I head out on vacation around 2 hours away. I had a trailer behind me with two jet skis. About an hour in to the trip, the check engine light pops up. I keep on trucking along because it's running fine. When I get to where I'm headed and stop to pay and park, the truck starts shimmying and shaking just how it did when I brought it in the shop the first round. I park it, call the mechanic, and tell him what's going on. He said that he would have to read the code and just to bring it by his shop when I got back in town. He reads the code when we get back and its throwing a VVT code and Runner Valve code. Can't remember which bank on either one. We got a labor warranty claim started with the parts house on the VVT. He said let's replace the VVT first and see if it clears the runner valve code. He installs the new VVT, it clears all codes. However, it is still running very bad at low RPM's. At this point, I have an altenator light on. Without checking with me first, he takes the alternator off and has it taken to be bench tested because he said I was only putting out around 13.2 volts. The alternator tested bad and he had it rebuilt and put it back on. He calls me to come get it because she's running right again.

This time fast forward to maybe 3 miles down the road after I left, starts running bad again. It throws a new code. It's the runner valve (can not remember what bank). He replaces it today, still running like crap. I have not spoke to him personally today because he went home sick.

I do not know the current state on how it is running and I will find out tomorrow. But at this point, Is there anything you guys might think could be wrong? Any possible ideas? I am almost $3.5k into this repair and have not had my vehicle in two out of the last 3 months. Any help would be vastly appreciated. Sorry about the long post, just trying to give as much information as possible. If there are any other questions I can answer to help with a possible diagnosis, please let me know. Thanks in advance for any help or input.

If its the runner valve, AKA, the CMCV, then that's obviously the only part he hasn't touched. That's part of your intake plenum. I hope the guy has been using good high quality OEM/Motorcraft parts.

Ford parts or aftermarket parts?

The runner valve was replaced today. It is still running bad. I haven't seen it, nor did I get much of an explanation of how it was running.

All motor-craft parts. Which makes me wonder about the VVT that went out. He believes the low voltage on the alternator is what may have caused it.

The alternator going bad shouldn't cause other parts to go bad.

Agreed. They’re pressure driven. Voltage can affect their actuation via the solenoid, which I didn’t see as having been replaced. Have they been? What oil are you running, and how long after the work did you let the oil go before changing it?

I had a very hard time understanding how the alternator could have caused that issue. I’m no master mechanic, but just didn’t seem right. It’s seems like he’s taking let’s throw parts at it until it runs right rather then trouble shoot.

Im running motor-craft 5W-20. That’s all I have ever ran since I bought the truck at 165,000 miles. I don’t know the exact mileage I put on it before taking it back, but I do know it was not over 3,000. I don’t think I had it back even a month before having problems. The solenoids have not been replaced. Just out of my own curiosity, if the solenoids were failing, would that show up when the truck is hooked to a computer?

I take back my statement on the VVT solenoids. When I wrote in my original post that I replaced both VVT's, I meant it as the VVT ( or VCT ) solenoids. So both were replaced, 1 failed after about a month. Replaced the damaged/defective one, then replaced the bad runner valve. So at this point I just don't know what else it could be.

So the phasers weren't replaced?

And, because I trust no one... were they actually MC parts used, or were you just charged for them?

I second this... How much trust do you have in this mechanic? At this point I'd be looking at them pretty cross...

All parts were definitely motor-craft. I picked up the parts myself just to make sure.

But, I talked with him yesterday. After replacing the bad CMCV, he took it for a test drive. He ran it for a while just to make sure, and everything was fine. No codes and running great. He pulls into a gas station on his way back in and the truck died on him. It would not turn over or anything. He is thinking something in the timing system let loose. He will be tearing into it this week to find out. Luckily, I am under warranty.

I did not replace the cam phasers. Looking back now, I do not understand why I did not. So since he is tearing back into it once again, I will be getting him to replace them.

If it wouldn't even turn over, that's electrical related. Dead battery, maybe alternator? Since they replaced the alternator, the replacement was probably bad out of the box (like most aftermarket ones are)

Yeah now we are getting into alternator voltage issues that is missed before. Testing the alternator and battery are easy enough. Low voltage won’t euin your parts but can affect solenoid operation and of course ignition.

So I finally have some insight on what's going on now...

He finally got my truck pulled apart this past Friday. Demanded that I immediately come see it in person. He hands me a rod end when I walk through the door. Metal shavings in the oil pan that look to be pieces of the piston. After $3.5K, the motor is now trashed. I find out Saturday, from another mechanic in the shop, that he was not simply pulling in the parking lot when the truck shut off, but rather running down the interstate. This would correlate with the damage he found after taking the timing cover off. After doing my research and relating that to the trouble I have had with this mechanic, I do believe this truck jumped time, and he is doing his best to hide it. So now, I am looking at dropping a new motor in the truck done by another mechanic who I should have used from the start. They will be paying close attention for signs of a timing jump, such as bent valves. If there is proof of this, I may heavily consider going the legal route to get at least something out of him.

My mechanic I will be using now swears by Jasper remans. I am still doing my homework before I spend that kind of money. Anybody have experience with remans as far as cost vs. quality, also with warranty taken into account?

I wouldn't shy away from a Jasper engine. They come with a warranty and that should include labor. And if your mechanic recommends them then I'd say he has a good working relationship with them.

I've seen Jasper mentioned a few times. I'd be okay with having that put in the truck.

Pistons don't typically explode on their own. I'd assume the engine jumped time, valve contacted piston, and blew up the piston. Engines don't just blow up after timing jobs... Is the first mechanic saying anything about what he thinks caused it?

I went with the Motorcraft rebuild. I know I spent an extra 1k to 2k on that. 3 year 100k warranty at any dealer is nice. But knowing that every single part in the engine is a Motorcraft part was worth it to me. I know you can buy an engine from AER who is said to do the Motorcraft Remans . . . That's fine, but do they use the exact same parts as the ones that are done for Ford. I had no way of knowing. One thing I've found is that skimping on an engine just isn't worth it.

I am REALLY glad that when the timing system started making some noise at 195k on mine, I compared prices for a reman vs a timing set and went with the reman. . . money well spent. Total cost on it was $7300 installed, runs like new. Just drove it on a 2100 mile round trip out of the country and had no worries about breakdowns. Had the transmission redone for $1800 at 185k. This truck is used for heavy towing frequently, not just a daily driver.

kw

He said some things to me Friday, but if I am being completely honest, I don't even remember due to the fact that my head was spinning knowing $3500 was thrown down the drain. And quite frankly, I will not believe a word he says. I lead myself on to be not as mechanically inclined as I actually am, and I do believe he is taking advantage of that. All in all, he will not be turning any more wrenches on my truck. The proof will be in the pudding once I decide on which option I am choosing on the new engine install.

I do very much so regret doing the timing job. You have some people say do the timing rebuild, others say drive it til it blows and do a reman. At 185k, I rolled the dice, and got raked over the coals with my decision. I am waiting to hear back on some quotes. Two different ones from my mechanic I am switching to. One with a Jasper reman the other with a reman from Powertrain Products. The third quote will be coming from a dealership. I am leaning towards Jasper I do believe. Just based off the experiences I have listened to, they seem to honor their products. The limited mile warranty does seem like a downfall, but I don't plan on putting that many miles on the truck anyways. I bought the truck in Oct. of 2017 with 162K and took it in for work in March of 19 at 185K. Based off that math, I will get the full 3 years.

As far as a transmission goes, it does scare me doing all this work and not doing the transmission while I am here. At this point, financially, I don't think I can swing that on top of a new engine. A positive to that though is I can count on 1 hand how many times I've done any trailer pulling with that truck since I have had it. And none of those have been anywhere near heavy duty. I am a 3rd owner, and I do know the 2nd owner well (he put the majority of the miles on it). I am confident in saying he did not do any vigorous regular hauling, so I do think I should be fine on the transmission.

It is a tough decision for sure. On the transmission, they wear out, they are not nearly as expensive as the engine to have redone. I did mine about 15k miles ago and it cost me around $1800-$2000 to have a transmissions shop rebuild it. The key on your specific scenario is do you have proof of fluid changes on the transmission. If not, I'd be somewhat concerned. I tow constantly with mine.

All it took was for me to price out a new truck to decide to keep mine and do a refresh. Cost of the new trucks are ridiculous. I'm a cash guy, hate taking a loan out on anything. The only reason any normal person can afford them is they are doing 30 year house loans on them.(jk) Anytime you are feeling bad about the cost, divide out what you've spent by 24 months. The 10k (very rough total) I put in mine(total refresh engine, transmission and a few other things), 24 months out, that works out to a $400 dollar car payment. . . If I drive it for four years . . that's $200 a month. . I'll take that anyday. Only way I lose is if I wreck it.

I would ask for a parts list on Jasper and who manufactures what parts they are putting in them before I made a decision to go with one of those. Goes back to not trusting anyone.

One other thing I do is I keep a beater around so that if something does go wrong that takes a while to fix I'm not stranded.

kw

So sorry to hear of your troubles . I don't encourage a timing job with paid labor. Its just too labor intensive. I know several mechanics who have screwed up the timing job. It takes a lot of understanding and a paid person is in a hurry . If the guy had not done a lot of these I can understand your problems.
If the owner is willing to learn and slowly do the job its not that difficult ,not many extra/or special tools are required ..
But we always encourage an evaluation of valve train and crank end play first . It really increases your knowledge to do one. Dropping the oil pan also tells a lot .
You tube has good info on these jobs ,ford tech malukoco/eric south main auto --really good help .
Some of us have developed a simpler way to do this job ,it can be done more than one way.
One mech I know accidentally screwed up timing on customers truck by 2 teeth ,he bought it from him for junk then fixed it and made another profit selling it fixed .That's outrageous behavior but it is done more than I think .
I can't see what was messed up on your engine to let it run good and then implode ,not with out some more info . Usually if its that far out of time it wont start and jams /bends valves right away .We hand turn the crank 2 full cw rotations to prove no valve piston contact before attempting a start or putting timing cover back on ..
If you go reman try to get the new hv melling oil pump to come with it . Oil is very very important on this hydraulically controlled engine ..

As much money as it seems like at one time, it really will be cheaper than buying a new truck. Plus, instead of buying some used truck that I don't know what its been through, I will have a brand new motor.

The best quote I was offered was $6700 out the door. That is with a Jasper motor. That really is not a bad price... Almost cheaper $1000 cheaper than the other quotes I received. Not to mention I thought about doing this myself, and Jasper would have sent one directly to me for around $6200. Based off the time I have, I will pay $500 extra in labor any day. All in all, I am content with what I decided to go with. I now would just love to get my $3500 back from the other mechanic that blew it up. I am sure that will be a whole other fiasco within itself .

Yea its not just a little bit cheaper than new either. . . Paying cash and not going in debt is something that is hard to do these days but very necessary if you're ever going to get ahead. Worse yet is going in debt and buying a vehicle with problems. Read over on the 2015-present form, find the oil consumption thread. . new technology always has bugs but that is a big one.

Other decisions I had to make in progress was, 1. Do I replace the COPs, 2. Do I replace the injectors. I chose no on both of them. . The mechanic doing the swap indicated they were both low failure items and encouraged me to not replace them and so far he was right. . .

Thx.

I just wanted to revisit this thread and give some closeout to my unique situation. Maybe if someone has a similar issue later down the road, they will stumble across this.

When I had the new mechanic do the Jasper installation, I asked him to keep an eye out for anything that seemed out of place. After he tore it down, he discovered that the timing chain tensioners were installed backwards. Keep in mind, these are stamped L & R for a reason. Based on the research I have done and opinions I got from some mechanics, this is why the motor ran well after initial repair, but eventually jumped back to the issues. With a 5.4 tensioner obtaining its tenseness hydraulically, it makes sense on why we had failure. If the chain tensioner is not lined up on the correct hole to receive its hydraulic pressure, well, it takes a simple minded person to finish the rest. I would like to think this caused slack in the chain and caused it to jump time. When the old mechanic called me to come look at the blown motor, the timing system was all in place. I would not be surprised if I found it to be true that he doctored it up to look as if it had not jumped time, but that is something I probably can't and won't prove.

Moving on from that, I would like to give a review of my Jasper Engine. I went with the option that deletes the use of the VVT (Variable Valve Timer). So far, I have 0 complaints. I ran into a Jasper rep at swap meet and he talked with me for over an hour about this entire situation. I love a quality product, but I am even more of a sucker for high end customer support. I feel like that's what these guys are about and that is what I hope to find as a customer. I would recommend this company to anybody considering using them.

I appreciate everyone's help and support as I went through this project. You guys are great!👌

I had a similar issue, myself. I did the timing job on an engine with 120k, and did all of it with factory service manual and FordTechMakuloco's videos as a guide. I did the oil pump while I was there. The oil pump failed in just over 20 miles, and seized the engine. I ended up doing a swap with an ATK reman. I'm not even through the break in, but it's feeling really nice.

I was quoted $8500 for the swap, but even after the timing job that went bad, and the engine swap, I'm at about $5500 so far. Now my truck is running beautifully, and it's nice knowing I've got a fresh engine with a 3 year warranty.

How does a rotary oil pump fail in the first place? What brand was it? Was it installed properly? It is a bit tricky to get it on the crankshaft.

Melling. I've used their stuff before and never had issues, and even did steps to prime the thing. I must have just gotten a bad one. It happens, I suppose.

How did you prime it? I primed it via the oil filter inlet. I used a transmission filler tube that you normally screw onto a bottle of transmission fluid, and did it with a bottle of oil and squeezed oil into that (about half a quart), then installed the oil filter (as suggested by a video done by Melling or Cloyes, I believe). It still took about a minute of off and on cranking to get oil to flow. My oil pressure with the M340HV is 70PSI cold idle, as high as 80psi cold at RPM above 1200, and hot idle of 35psi, and max of 60-65psi hot above 1200RPM (stock pressure)

Nearly the same. I poured in fresh oil to the inlet and rolled the pump by hand, until it was coming out the outlet. Then installed and cranked with the crank sensor unplugged to let the thing prime and get up to pressure. Then crank some more to allow it to circulate. Then run as normal from then on. I'm not really sure what went wrong, but the oil pump sure felt a bit chewy after removing it, and there was no damage to the impeller faces where it interfaces on the crankshaft flats.

I've sent it back to Melling with the invoices for the repair work, so hopefully they will cover it. If not, I suppose I'll just have to chalk it up to a fluke of the manufacturer.