5.4 Newbie with Engine Dilema
02-05-2014, 01:16 PM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
5.4 Newbie with Engine Dilema
Hello All!
First post so please go easy on me! I just bought a 2006 FX4 5.4 with 140k miles on it. I bought it with a poorly running engine for a great price. The guy told me his mechanic said it had bad cam phasers but recommended engine replacement since he was not really sure. The symptoms are as follows:
-codes P0340, P0345, P0349
-starts and runs perfect when cold, no noise
-after about a minute when you start to bring up rpms, it starts making knock sound like a loud diesel sound and misfires.
-I did have the oil pressure suddenly drop to zero when bringing the rpms up and I turned off the motor. Other times it does not drop and appears normal. but the sound is still there.
-The previous owner said he was driving and the oil pressure went to zero and wouldnt come back so he had it towed home, where it sat before I bought it.
I have read this most awesome forum until I am blue in the face trying to find answers on my issues and it seems the more you read the more possibilities it could be. I always want to try and fix something before just writing it off...SO....I tore it down. First late model Ford to work on and..oh my...what a difficult engine to work on. I pulled the valve covers off (see pic below) and the timing cover off (see pic below). So far all I found was a sludged and varnished interior and a broken timing chain guide (just cracked and seperated from bolt no pieces appear missing). The sludge is really just a hardened layer inside the valve train not really pliable. It kinda flakes off when you push hard with your fingernail. Thicker on cam bearing caps. There is alot of varnish on the complete interior including valve train area. I did pull the front bearing cap off each cam and the bearings look fine with oil being delivered. The phasers don't appear to look damaged, just varnished. I am in the process of trying to get the oil pan off cause I suspect a clogged strainer with the sludge and maybe some worn shavings from broken chain guide rubbing loosely on chain. Here are my options:
option1 - buy a used engine I found for $1950 (96k miles) and replace existing one
OR
option2 - repair with new OEM replacement: VTC solenoids, Phasers, Timing Chain, Chain Guides, Tensioners, timing chain crank gear, main seal, and new oil pump. Also, pull and clean the engine oil pan and strainer. Then pray to that it works Total cost $750.
Option 1 would require REMOVAL of the engine and what I am reading here that is not possible without lifting the cab, that the transmission bolts are impossible to get to trying to remove it. I really don't want to have to go through this. I have done engine swaps before. But if my engine is not salvageable then I will have to give it a try. Any engine pull tips (without cab lift) would be greatly appreciated. I have access to a cherry picker.
Option 2 is the preferred route for me of course due to cost and labor. The downside to this is that I am not sure it will fix the issue and even if it does am I fixing a toasted motor? Like I said when it did run upon cold start it would run smooth as a whistle under 2k rpm. I have seen some posts here that say it is normal to see that kind of varnish and some sludge on a motor with that kind of miles. I suspect when I get the oil pan off I can check for rod bearing slop.
Any ideas on what to do with this one based on the facts that I have provided? Anyone have a similar experience and what was the outcome?
Thank you all in advance.
First post so please go easy on me! I just bought a 2006 FX4 5.4 with 140k miles on it. I bought it with a poorly running engine for a great price. The guy told me his mechanic said it had bad cam phasers but recommended engine replacement since he was not really sure. The symptoms are as follows:
-codes P0340, P0345, P0349
-starts and runs perfect when cold, no noise
-after about a minute when you start to bring up rpms, it starts making knock sound like a loud diesel sound and misfires.
-I did have the oil pressure suddenly drop to zero when bringing the rpms up and I turned off the motor. Other times it does not drop and appears normal. but the sound is still there.
-The previous owner said he was driving and the oil pressure went to zero and wouldnt come back so he had it towed home, where it sat before I bought it.
I have read this most awesome forum until I am blue in the face trying to find answers on my issues and it seems the more you read the more possibilities it could be. I always want to try and fix something before just writing it off...SO....I tore it down. First late model Ford to work on and..oh my...what a difficult engine to work on. I pulled the valve covers off (see pic below) and the timing cover off (see pic below). So far all I found was a sludged and varnished interior and a broken timing chain guide (just cracked and seperated from bolt no pieces appear missing). The sludge is really just a hardened layer inside the valve train not really pliable. It kinda flakes off when you push hard with your fingernail. Thicker on cam bearing caps. There is alot of varnish on the complete interior including valve train area. I did pull the front bearing cap off each cam and the bearings look fine with oil being delivered. The phasers don't appear to look damaged, just varnished. I am in the process of trying to get the oil pan off cause I suspect a clogged strainer with the sludge and maybe some worn shavings from broken chain guide rubbing loosely on chain. Here are my options:
option1 - buy a used engine I found for $1950 (96k miles) and replace existing one
OR
option2 - repair with new OEM replacement: VTC solenoids, Phasers, Timing Chain, Chain Guides, Tensioners, timing chain crank gear, main seal, and new oil pump. Also, pull and clean the engine oil pan and strainer. Then pray to that it works Total cost $750.
Option 1 would require REMOVAL of the engine and what I am reading here that is not possible without lifting the cab, that the transmission bolts are impossible to get to trying to remove it. I really don't want to have to go through this. I have done engine swaps before. But if my engine is not salvageable then I will have to give it a try. Any engine pull tips (without cab lift) would be greatly appreciated. I have access to a cherry picker.
Option 2 is the preferred route for me of course due to cost and labor. The downside to this is that I am not sure it will fix the issue and even if it does am I fixing a toasted motor? Like I said when it did run upon cold start it would run smooth as a whistle under 2k rpm. I have seen some posts here that say it is normal to see that kind of varnish and some sludge on a motor with that kind of miles. I suspect when I get the oil pan off I can check for rod bearing slop.
Any ideas on what to do with this one based on the facts that I have provided? Anyone have a similar experience and what was the outcome?
Thank you all in advance.
02-05-2014, 01:58 PM
#2
I would probably go ahead and do Opt 2. In My opinion the wildcard is the Oil Pressure. I would probably do a compression test on each cylinder and see if you have any other problems before going forward with either plan.
Last edited by rubbinsracin; 02-05-2014 at 02:01 PM.
02-05-2014, 07:59 PM
#4
Senior Member
Option 2 might work IF your lucky. My experience with knocking and low oil pressure points to worn main bearings. If it were me I would drop the pan and pull the main caps and do a plasti gage to check the clearance. If they spec out ok then move on to the oil pump. Good luck and keep us posted!
02-05-2014, 08:23 PM
#5
it sucks, it appears to me that most the problems with the cam phasers and knocking sounds from the 5.4 engines is due to lack of maintenance when it comes to changing the oil regulary and using in my opinion a fully synthetic oil and motor craft oil filter or better. I have a 2006 F150 fx4 with 70,000 miles on it and i use Amsoil 5w30 oil and have zero noise from my engine.
02-05-2014, 08:46 PM
#6
it sucks, it appears to me that most the problems with the cam phasers and knocking sounds from the 5.4 engines is due to lack of maintenance when it comes to changing the oil regulary and using in my opinion a fully synthetic oil and motor craft oil filter or better. I have a 2006 F150 fx4 with 70,000 miles on it and i use Amsoil 5w30 oil and have zero noise from my engine.
02-05-2014, 09:36 PM
#7
Junior Member
Thread Starter
update with more info to help with the decision (look at the pics below):
I pulled the oil pan tonight. Not much in the way of sludge in the bottom of the pan, but there is the hard crusty carbon stuff in the bottom. In fact the oil tube intake screen was 75% blocked with this stuff. In the pic below, I had already knocked some of it out. I suspect this is probably my oil pressure suddenly going to zero issue. when I throttle up it sucks up more and blocks it off.
the inside of the crankcase is very dirty as you can see in the pics. That crusty carbon stuff is caked up about 1/16 inch under the back 2 pistons. The cylinder walls look great. There is no rod bearing or pin slop. I did not pull the crank main caps off to inspect. I took a screw driver and knocked off that hard crusty carbon stuff off the underside of piston. It is really varnished up inside too. I don't know if this crusty stuff is just normal buildup or it is an indication that it was run with no oil and burnt it. I am afraid that even if I fix it and put it back together that this stuff will just keep gathering in the pan and clogging the screen.
Is there a way I can spray a solvent into the underside of the crankcase and heads to remove all this stuff?
Here are the pics, Now what do you think?:
I pulled the oil pan tonight. Not much in the way of sludge in the bottom of the pan, but there is the hard crusty carbon stuff in the bottom. In fact the oil tube intake screen was 75% blocked with this stuff. In the pic below, I had already knocked some of it out. I suspect this is probably my oil pressure suddenly going to zero issue. when I throttle up it sucks up more and blocks it off.
the inside of the crankcase is very dirty as you can see in the pics. That crusty carbon stuff is caked up about 1/16 inch under the back 2 pistons. The cylinder walls look great. There is no rod bearing or pin slop. I did not pull the crank main caps off to inspect. I took a screw driver and knocked off that hard crusty carbon stuff off the underside of piston. It is really varnished up inside too. I don't know if this crusty stuff is just normal buildup or it is an indication that it was run with no oil and burnt it. I am afraid that even if I fix it and put it back together that this stuff will just keep gathering in the pan and clogging the screen.
Is there a way I can spray a solvent into the underside of the crankcase and heads to remove all this stuff?
Here are the pics, Now what do you think?:
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02-05-2014, 10:21 PM
#8
what do the plugs look like in the back 2 cylinders? if they look ok I would guess the cylinders are ok.
I'd swap the pan pickup, clean the hell out of the pan, clean as best as you can out of the bottom side, do the full swap of the timing parts and see how it runs. I would make sure you run good full synthetic and change it quite often, say every 750 to 1000 miles for 4 or 5 changes to get as much cleaned out as you can. might even be worth changing the first time after say 100ish miles from all you have knocked loose.
I'd swap the pan pickup, clean the hell out of the pan, clean as best as you can out of the bottom side, do the full swap of the timing parts and see how it runs. I would make sure you run good full synthetic and change it quite often, say every 750 to 1000 miles for 4 or 5 changes to get as much cleaned out as you can. might even be worth changing the first time after say 100ish miles from all you have knocked loose.
02-05-2014, 10:26 PM
#9
That much varnish and crud would make me a little nervous. These are a couple pictures I took before I had all the timing components replaced. I was having the normal ticking and low oil pressure at cold startup but it ran fine. This was at about 125k or so for comparison.