2005 KR 5.4 Rough Idle and Tick
#51
LightningRod
@Roodblock007 I have carefully reviewed all your Torque Pro Variable Valve Timing Monitor screenshots. My assessment (based on mmy experience using the same dashboard gauges on my truck - both BEFORE and after my timing job) is: I do not see any indication of near term impending variable timing problems. A couple of comments that might help YOU refine my assessment.
The VCTERROR1 and 2 are NON Existant OBD parameters that I dreamed up on my own and created gauges for. Understanding WHAT I did to create them is essential to 'weigh' what they mean. Things happen VERY FAST in a computer such as the PCM. It is hard to drive safetly and observe a 'rash' of gauges. CAMERRR and VCT2ERR are the PCM's instantaneous calculated positive/negative difference between the PCM's 'REQUESTED RETARD' (RCAM & RCAM2) and the _ACTUAL_ cam position. IDK how 'fast' or frequently the PCM does this calculation and presents it on OBDII ports, but I must assume it to be many times per second. I DO KNOW, my Torque Pro adapter is doing about 20 OBDII reads per second - or refreshes THIS screen roughly once per second. That all sounds nice and quick - but I can still EASILY miss short term error readings when concentrating on driving. Factory spec is for Over Retard and Over Advanced DTC's is > 5 cam degrees for > 5 seconds. So to slow things down, I created accumulators in which Torque Pro simply ADDS the CAMERR value (positive or negative) EACH READ - then I divide that sum by 10 (just to keep it within reasonable gauge size). It increases as cams are 'OVER - ADVANCED' and decreases when they are 'OVER RETARDED' with respect to RCAM. In a perfect world, they would bobble above / below zero, and no matter length of drive cycle end up at or near zero.
If they 'TREND' in one direction, it suggests cam error spends more time in that state than the opposite. In your case, both banks are generally negative, HOWEVER - if after the total 30 minuite or so drive cycle, the total accumulation of -38 and -58 certainly is NOT BAD.
In reality, the effect of chain wear/stretch (and a broken - missing guide) actually retards the phaser 'very slightly'. If every read is a couple of tenths over retarded - the total would drift that way if EVERYTHING ELSE WAS EQUAL. It all has to be taken in context.
You could be nearing the timing job milage zone, but keep good oil / filter in it and AVOID misfires (which damage guides). Mine went to 212,000 before I my timing job.
In summary, I can see NOTHING out of the ordinary with cam operation, and I notice IMRC seems to be opening on expected conditions. These have nothing to do with the 'TICK', and I do not see a connection to the rough idle.
The VCTERROR1 and 2 are NON Existant OBD parameters that I dreamed up on my own and created gauges for. Understanding WHAT I did to create them is essential to 'weigh' what they mean. Things happen VERY FAST in a computer such as the PCM. It is hard to drive safetly and observe a 'rash' of gauges. CAMERRR and VCT2ERR are the PCM's instantaneous calculated positive/negative difference between the PCM's 'REQUESTED RETARD' (RCAM & RCAM2) and the _ACTUAL_ cam position. IDK how 'fast' or frequently the PCM does this calculation and presents it on OBDII ports, but I must assume it to be many times per second. I DO KNOW, my Torque Pro adapter is doing about 20 OBDII reads per second - or refreshes THIS screen roughly once per second. That all sounds nice and quick - but I can still EASILY miss short term error readings when concentrating on driving. Factory spec is for Over Retard and Over Advanced DTC's is > 5 cam degrees for > 5 seconds. So to slow things down, I created accumulators in which Torque Pro simply ADDS the CAMERR value (positive or negative) EACH READ - then I divide that sum by 10 (just to keep it within reasonable gauge size). It increases as cams are 'OVER - ADVANCED' and decreases when they are 'OVER RETARDED' with respect to RCAM. In a perfect world, they would bobble above / below zero, and no matter length of drive cycle end up at or near zero.
If they 'TREND' in one direction, it suggests cam error spends more time in that state than the opposite. In your case, both banks are generally negative, HOWEVER - if after the total 30 minuite or so drive cycle, the total accumulation of -38 and -58 certainly is NOT BAD.
In reality, the effect of chain wear/stretch (and a broken - missing guide) actually retards the phaser 'very slightly'. If every read is a couple of tenths over retarded - the total would drift that way if EVERYTHING ELSE WAS EQUAL. It all has to be taken in context.
You could be nearing the timing job milage zone, but keep good oil / filter in it and AVOID misfires (which damage guides). Mine went to 212,000 before I my timing job.
In summary, I can see NOTHING out of the ordinary with cam operation, and I notice IMRC seems to be opening on expected conditions. These have nothing to do with the 'TICK', and I do not see a connection to the rough idle.
#52
I really appreciate all of the help guys. It's been a lot of work and I think that its good we are at least ruling out a few things.
I found 2 exhaust leaks using my shop vac to pressurize the exhaust and spraying soapy water. One leak is at the passenger side where the y pipe meets the straight pipe going to the muffler. There us a crappy weld there that is really hissing bad, but its post cat so not introducing any oxygen. Second is the drivers side doughnut gasket at the manifold to the y pipe. It's very minor and if my shop vac wasn't 5hp I'm not sure it would even leak. Was barely bubbling.
No other leaks though. I'm going to pull the drivers side valve cover soon. I've been researching the procedure to see if there's anything odd I should know but every procedure is for the passenger side. Is that because the drivers side is so straight forward?
I found 2 exhaust leaks using my shop vac to pressurize the exhaust and spraying soapy water. One leak is at the passenger side where the y pipe meets the straight pipe going to the muffler. There us a crappy weld there that is really hissing bad, but its post cat so not introducing any oxygen. Second is the drivers side doughnut gasket at the manifold to the y pipe. It's very minor and if my shop vac wasn't 5hp I'm not sure it would even leak. Was barely bubbling.
No other leaks though. I'm going to pull the drivers side valve cover soon. I've been researching the procedure to see if there's anything odd I should know but every procedure is for the passenger side. Is that because the drivers side is so straight forward?
#53
LightningRod
Thanks for the update. It is going to be enormously satisfying it the minor exhaust leak(s) prove to be responsible for the fuel trims being 'whacked' out of shape - and most likely resulting in reduced fuel economy.
As for them being 'downstream' from cats, don't forget during lite cruise, (under maximum Retard), exhaust valves are closing later (PAST TDC when piston is starting to move 'downward'). This EGR effect causes negative pressure in the exhaust manifolds - drawing exhaust gases backwards into cylinders. Your post cat leak can let fresh air get drawn backwards into the CAT where the downstream O2 sensor is. If it senses 'oxygen', the PCM's reaction is to increase injector pulse width (fuel trims> +). I think you have located the problem with trims.
As for the drivers side valve cover - if yours is like my '04 it is real straight forward EXCEPT for getting the Power Steering reservoir.bracket out of the way. Getting the bottom 18mm bolt was a bi*!*$)h - from underneath with a long extension and wiggle-tail.
Good luck. Keep us posted.
As for them being 'downstream' from cats, don't forget during lite cruise, (under maximum Retard), exhaust valves are closing later (PAST TDC when piston is starting to move 'downward'). This EGR effect causes negative pressure in the exhaust manifolds - drawing exhaust gases backwards into cylinders. Your post cat leak can let fresh air get drawn backwards into the CAT where the downstream O2 sensor is. If it senses 'oxygen', the PCM's reaction is to increase injector pulse width (fuel trims> +). I think you have located the problem with trims.
As for the drivers side valve cover - if yours is like my '04 it is real straight forward EXCEPT for getting the Power Steering reservoir.bracket out of the way. Getting the bottom 18mm bolt was a bi*!*$)h - from underneath with a long extension and wiggle-tail.
Good luck. Keep us posted.
#54
Member
As for the drivers side valve cover - if yours is like my '04 it is real straight forward EXCEPT for getting the Power Steering reservoir.bracket out of the way. Getting the bottom 18mm bolt was a bi*!*$)h - from underneath with a long extension and wiggle-tail.
Good luck. Keep us posted.
Good luck. Keep us posted.
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F150Torqued (06-17-2019)
#55
LightningRod
Yea', I remember. I saw that after I had taken the bolt all the way out and looked at bracket. (Just another one of my MANY "F - Ups" sprinkled around the total job). --Worst of which was not having my (first) new Melling oil pump seated all the way before torquing the bolts (AND CRACKING -totally ruining- IT).
#56
I fixed the exhaust leak and took it for a 1/2 hour drive. Still had some really bad idle so I started logging for the last 10 minutes of the drive. Most are the fuel screen, but a couple are the cam screen.
#57
LightningRod
Roadblock007 I do not see ANYTHING out of ordinary in your CAM TIMING MONITOR screenshots. CAMERRR and VCT2ERR are not way out of line in any screenshot (and accumulated values of those readings - VCT1ERRTand VCT2ERRT are not excessive). In a 35 mile drive cycle, I have seen mine reach an accumulation of 500 at times. My bank 1 (passenger side) seems to always have the higher numbers - but that side sucks hind tit (oil supply wise). In each of your screenshots, RCAM & RCAM2 - and Solenoid duty cycles are within a narrow (~1 degree) range. I hesitate to think there is anything there that could explain a rough idle - in absence of some other symptom to consider, like diesel sound at idle. There is NOTHING showing up in these gauges. Prior to my timing job, VCT1ERRT and VCT2ERRT would build to a certain point and the PCM would shut OFF VCTENA. It would not come back on until the start of next drive cycle.
*** I can see a 'subtle' difference in your fuel trims since you fixed the POST CAT exhaust leak. I even believe they will FURTHER IMPROVE with more driving and your MPG should reflect it. It is not "OBVIOUS" when the eyes an brain sorta bets lost in a bunch of pretty gauges jumping around all over the place. But making a couple of, what I believe are, reasonable assumptions - I did the following analysis to reach this conclusion.
The intervals between the 10 screenshots were randomly timed, ie: just periodically snapped without particular regard to readings, through out the drive cycle.
Likewise, as were the last ten screenshots I used from Post #37 I used for comparison - which you took PRIOR to repairing the exhaust leak.
I put the Bank2 and Bank1 STFT / LTFT / & Rear FT Bias in a table so they can be viewed a little more pragmatically without the neat dynamic graphics.
Of particular importance is that although the TWO columns are side by side - There is NO relationship between readings in the left and right columns EXCEPT, the first were taken randomly PRE exhaust leak repair - and the right were tanken randomly POST exhaust leak repair.
Also important is: As I have previously disclosed, I don't know WHAT the meaning, source, or effect of Rear Fuel Trims (sometimes referred to as Rear Fuel Trim Bias) is. It shows up in some documentation I have dug up - but NO elaboration beyond its Name & Acronym. The PIDs also appear as active in a database I acquired (superstitiously) from a dynomometer manufacturer. So I trust it has 'something to do with TRIMS'. The readings are included in the table in parenthesis but are NOT included in the TOTALS (highlighted in 'Yellow'), NOR the Grand Total of all samples (highlighted in 'Green').
CLEARLY the overall ('running average') of TRIM adjustments are running closer to ZERO post exhaust leak repair.
*** I can see a 'subtle' difference in your fuel trims since you fixed the POST CAT exhaust leak. I even believe they will FURTHER IMPROVE with more driving and your MPG should reflect it. It is not "OBVIOUS" when the eyes an brain sorta bets lost in a bunch of pretty gauges jumping around all over the place. But making a couple of, what I believe are, reasonable assumptions - I did the following analysis to reach this conclusion.
The intervals between the 10 screenshots were randomly timed, ie: just periodically snapped without particular regard to readings, through out the drive cycle.
Likewise, as were the last ten screenshots I used from Post #37 I used for comparison - which you took PRIOR to repairing the exhaust leak.
I put the Bank2 and Bank1 STFT / LTFT / & Rear FT Bias in a table so they can be viewed a little more pragmatically without the neat dynamic graphics.
Of particular importance is that although the TWO columns are side by side - There is NO relationship between readings in the left and right columns EXCEPT, the first were taken randomly PRE exhaust leak repair - and the right were tanken randomly POST exhaust leak repair.
Also important is: As I have previously disclosed, I don't know WHAT the meaning, source, or effect of Rear Fuel Trims (sometimes referred to as Rear Fuel Trim Bias) is. It shows up in some documentation I have dug up - but NO elaboration beyond its Name & Acronym. The PIDs also appear as active in a database I acquired (superstitiously) from a dynomometer manufacturer. So I trust it has 'something to do with TRIMS'. The readings are included in the table in parenthesis but are NOT included in the TOTALS (highlighted in 'Yellow'), NOR the Grand Total of all samples (highlighted in 'Green').
CLEARLY the overall ('running average') of TRIM adjustments are running closer to ZERO post exhaust leak repair.
#58
Roadblock007 I do not see ANYTHING out of ordinary in your CAM TIMING MONITOR screenshots. CAMERRR and VCT2ERR are not way out of line in any screenshot (and accumulated values of those readings - VCT1ERRTand VCT2ERRT are not excessive). In a 35 mile drive cycle, I have seen mine reach an accumulation of 500 at times. My bank 1 (passenger side) seems to always have the higher numbers - but that side sucks hind tit (oil supply wise). In each of your screenshots, RCAM & RCAM2 - and Solenoid duty cycles are within a narrow (~1 degree) range. I hesitate to think there is anything there that could explain a rough idle - in absence of some other symptom to consider, like diesel sound at idle. There is NOTHING showing up in these gauges. Prior to my timing job, VCT1ERRT and VCT2ERRT would build to a certain point and the PCM would shut OFF VCTENA. It would not come back on until the start of next drive cycle.
*** I can see a 'subtle' difference in your fuel trims since you fixed the POST CAT exhaust leak. I even believe they will FURTHER IMPROVE with more driving and your MPG should reflect it. It is not "OBVIOUS" when the eyes an brain sorta bets lost in a bunch of pretty gauges jumping around all over the place. But making a couple of, what I believe are, reasonable assumptions - I did the following analysis to reach this conclusion.
The intervals between the 10 screenshots were randomly timed, ie: just periodically snapped without particular regard to readings, through out the drive cycle.
Likewise, as were the last ten screenshots I used from Post #37 I used for comparison - which you took PRIOR to repairing the exhaust leak.
I put the Bank2 and Bank1 STFT / LTFT / & Rear FT Bias in a table so they can be viewed a little more pragmatically without the neat dynamic graphics.
Of particular importance is that although the TWO columns are side by side - There is NO relationship between readings in the left and right columns EXCEPT, the first were taken randomly PRE exhaust leak repair - and the right were tanken randomly POST exhaust leak repair.
Also important is: As I have previously disclosed, I don't know WHAT the meaning, source, or effect of Rear Fuel Trims (sometimes referred to as Rear Fuel Trim Bias) is. It shows up in some documentation I have dug up - but NO elaboration beyond its Name & Acronym. The PIDs also appear as active in a database I acquired (superstitiously) from a dynomometer manufacturer. So I trust it has 'something to do with TRIMS'. The readings are included in the table in parenthesis but are NOT included in the TOTALS (highlighted in 'Yellow'), NOR the Grand Total of all samples (highlighted in 'Green').
CLEARLY the overall ('running average') of TRIM adjustments are running closer to ZERO post exhaust leak repair.
*** I can see a 'subtle' difference in your fuel trims since you fixed the POST CAT exhaust leak. I even believe they will FURTHER IMPROVE with more driving and your MPG should reflect it. It is not "OBVIOUS" when the eyes an brain sorta bets lost in a bunch of pretty gauges jumping around all over the place. But making a couple of, what I believe are, reasonable assumptions - I did the following analysis to reach this conclusion.
The intervals between the 10 screenshots were randomly timed, ie: just periodically snapped without particular regard to readings, through out the drive cycle.
Likewise, as were the last ten screenshots I used from Post #37 I used for comparison - which you took PRIOR to repairing the exhaust leak.
I put the Bank2 and Bank1 STFT / LTFT / & Rear FT Bias in a table so they can be viewed a little more pragmatically without the neat dynamic graphics.
Of particular importance is that although the TWO columns are side by side - There is NO relationship between readings in the left and right columns EXCEPT, the first were taken randomly PRE exhaust leak repair - and the right were tanken randomly POST exhaust leak repair.
Also important is: As I have previously disclosed, I don't know WHAT the meaning, source, or effect of Rear Fuel Trims (sometimes referred to as Rear Fuel Trim Bias) is. It shows up in some documentation I have dug up - but NO elaboration beyond its Name & Acronym. The PIDs also appear as active in a database I acquired (superstitiously) from a dynomometer manufacturer. So I trust it has 'something to do with TRIMS'. The readings are included in the table in parenthesis but are NOT included in the TOTALS (highlighted in 'Yellow'), NOR the Grand Total of all samples (highlighted in 'Green').
CLEARLY the overall ('running average') of TRIM adjustments are running closer to ZERO post exhaust leak repair.
#60
Running bad still, especially at idle in park. Smells really bad out the tail pipe until it warms up and getting 17 mpg hwy and 14mpg city. I attached more screens. Hopefully something is showing. Looks like 1 bank has consistantly higher stft than the other until the catstat comes on. Then then they level out a bit.
Last edited by Roadblock007; 06-25-2019 at 10:01 PM.