New Guy- 09 Fuel Tank Observations
08-12-2011, 01:36 PM
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New Guy- 09 Fuel Tank Observations
I've had some drivability issues pop up lately along with fuel/miles to empty fluctuations that are reported by many here. Also usually it is hard to start after filling the fuel tank.
Yesterday I looked underneath and was surprised at what I saw-
Yes, the incredible collapsing fuel tank.
Now I understand why I would get a 31 miles to empty warning pop up without starting at 50.
The tank returned to its normal size after inserting the funnel device that sits under the back seat except the bottom above the front strap. Tank is the 36 gal.
Now in looking over the components that make up the system-
Fuel line out of tank to feed the engine. Not the problem although I imagine it affects the fuel flow sucking against the vacuum in the tank.
There isn't a fuel return to the tank from the fuel rail. So there isn't really any way the tank could pressurize other than atmospheric inputs.
Fuel tank vent line through the evap canister to the intake manifold. Obviously no blockages here. 2 solenoids operate in this line system, 1 on the line near the manifold bolted to the rear of the manifold and the other in the evap canister that opens to the atmosphere.
I tested both and they work properly. The one on the engine is closed to flow without power and opens with power. The one in the evap canister extends a plunger with power and it retracts without.
Tested the wiring leads and the engine mounted solenoid leads power up when the key is turned on. It must not ever shut off while the engine is running.
The evap canister lead always has power whether the key is on and the truck is running or after being parked for hours. Never lacked power when checked multiple times over the last 20 hrs.
My question is what controls these solenoids? Some relay? PCM? Sensor?
Since one doesn't open even with the truck shut off what ever controls this needs to be looked at.
Truck has 104K.
Can someone other than a Ford dealer reprogram the PCM?
Yesterday I looked underneath and was surprised at what I saw-
Yes, the incredible collapsing fuel tank.
Now I understand why I would get a 31 miles to empty warning pop up without starting at 50.
The tank returned to its normal size after inserting the funnel device that sits under the back seat except the bottom above the front strap. Tank is the 36 gal.
Now in looking over the components that make up the system-
Fuel line out of tank to feed the engine. Not the problem although I imagine it affects the fuel flow sucking against the vacuum in the tank.
There isn't a fuel return to the tank from the fuel rail. So there isn't really any way the tank could pressurize other than atmospheric inputs.
Fuel tank vent line through the evap canister to the intake manifold. Obviously no blockages here. 2 solenoids operate in this line system, 1 on the line near the manifold bolted to the rear of the manifold and the other in the evap canister that opens to the atmosphere.
I tested both and they work properly. The one on the engine is closed to flow without power and opens with power. The one in the evap canister extends a plunger with power and it retracts without.
Tested the wiring leads and the engine mounted solenoid leads power up when the key is turned on. It must not ever shut off while the engine is running.
The evap canister lead always has power whether the key is on and the truck is running or after being parked for hours. Never lacked power when checked multiple times over the last 20 hrs.
My question is what controls these solenoids? Some relay? PCM? Sensor?
Since one doesn't open even with the truck shut off what ever controls this needs to be looked at.
Truck has 104K.
Can someone other than a Ford dealer reprogram the PCM?
08-13-2011, 12:40 PM
#2
Senior Member
I've had some drivability issues pop up lately along with fuel/miles to empty fluctuations that are reported by many here. Also usually it is hard to start after filling the fuel tank.
Yesterday I looked underneath and was surprised at what I saw-
Yes, the incredible collapsing fuel tank.
Now I understand why I would get a 31 miles to empty warning pop up without starting at 50.
The tank returned to its normal size after inserting the funnel device that sits under the back seat except the bottom above the front strap. Tank is the 36 gal.
Now in looking over the components that make up the system-
Fuel line out of tank to feed the engine. Not the problem although I imagine it affects the fuel flow sucking against the vacuum in the tank.
There isn't a fuel return to the tank from the fuel rail. So there isn't really any way the tank could pressurize other than atmospheric inputs.
Fuel tank vent line through the evap canister to the intake manifold. Obviously no blockages here. 2 solenoids operate in this line system, 1 on the line near the manifold bolted to the rear of the manifold and the other in the evap canister that opens to the atmosphere.
I tested both and they work properly. The one on the engine is closed to flow without power and opens with power. The one in the evap canister extends a plunger with power and it retracts without.
Tested the wiring leads and the engine mounted solenoid leads power up when the key is turned on. It must not ever shut off while the engine is running.
The evap canister lead always has power whether the key is on and the truck is running or after being parked for hours. Never lacked power when checked multiple times over the last 20 hrs.
My question is what controls these solenoids? Some relay? PCM? Sensor?
Since one doesn't open even with the truck shut off what ever controls this needs to be looked at.
Truck has 104K.
Can someone other than a Ford dealer reprogram the PCM?
Yesterday I looked underneath and was surprised at what I saw-
Yes, the incredible collapsing fuel tank.
Now I understand why I would get a 31 miles to empty warning pop up without starting at 50.
The tank returned to its normal size after inserting the funnel device that sits under the back seat except the bottom above the front strap. Tank is the 36 gal.
Now in looking over the components that make up the system-
Fuel line out of tank to feed the engine. Not the problem although I imagine it affects the fuel flow sucking against the vacuum in the tank.
There isn't a fuel return to the tank from the fuel rail. So there isn't really any way the tank could pressurize other than atmospheric inputs.
Fuel tank vent line through the evap canister to the intake manifold. Obviously no blockages here. 2 solenoids operate in this line system, 1 on the line near the manifold bolted to the rear of the manifold and the other in the evap canister that opens to the atmosphere.
I tested both and they work properly. The one on the engine is closed to flow without power and opens with power. The one in the evap canister extends a plunger with power and it retracts without.
Tested the wiring leads and the engine mounted solenoid leads power up when the key is turned on. It must not ever shut off while the engine is running.
The evap canister lead always has power whether the key is on and the truck is running or after being parked for hours. Never lacked power when checked multiple times over the last 20 hrs.
My question is what controls these solenoids? Some relay? PCM? Sensor?
Since one doesn't open even with the truck shut off what ever controls this needs to be looked at.
Truck has 104K.
Can someone other than a Ford dealer reprogram the PCM?
Also, just because the solenoid works when you apply power to it doesn't mean it's operating when being commanded by the PCM. Same thing as I mentioned above can happen if the PCM commands purge flow and that solenoid vent at the canister does not open to atmosphere.
Last edited by rlh6805; 08-13-2011 at 12:43 PM.
08-13-2011, 01:33 PM
#3
Senior Member
wow, lol! Very strange indeed.
08-13-2011, 02:09 PM
#4
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Hmmm, this is interesting.
I have had my '09 with the 36 gal. tank for over two years now and I have never [noticed] the tank to collapse as depicted; and look like someone drove it over a big rock?
I have had my '09 with the 36 gal. tank for over two years now and I have never [noticed] the tank to collapse as depicted; and look like someone drove it over a big rock?
08-13-2011, 04:02 PM
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PennDOT isn't the greatest but Rocks are not a normal part of the road.
I downloaded the service manual and have been looking it over.
08-13-2011, 04:13 PM
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Double check the atmospheric vent at that solenoid on the EVAP canister. If the vent is blocked, when the PCM commands purge flow, the tank will be sucked in by the engine vacuum pulling the fuel vapors from the canister.
Also, just because the solenoid works when you apply power to it doesn't mean it's operating when being commanded by the PCM. Same thing as I mentioned above can happen if the PCM commands purge flow and that solenoid vent at the canister does not open to atmosphere.
Also, just because the solenoid works when you apply power to it doesn't mean it's operating when being commanded by the PCM. Same thing as I mentioned above can happen if the PCM commands purge flow and that solenoid vent at the canister does not open to atmosphere.
Looks like I'll check for blockage in the canister.
1940s Rolls Royce Technology is easier to problem solve.
Thanks,
Rich
08-13-2011, 04:36 PM
#7
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I wasn't demeaning your post; and if a 'rock' had bashed the tank like on the 'Rubicon Trail', there would be scrape marks clearly visible; I was just stating that I have not observed this phenomenon on [my] '09.
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08-13-2011, 05:18 PM
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Double check the atmospheric vent at that solenoid on the EVAP canister. If the vent is blocked, when the PCM commands purge flow, the tank will be sucked in by the engine vacuum pulling the fuel vapors from the canister.
Also, just because the solenoid works when you apply power to it doesn't mean it's operating when being commanded by the PCM. Same thing as I mentioned above can happen if the PCM commands purge flow and that solenoid vent at the canister does not open to atmosphere.
Also, just because the solenoid works when you apply power to it doesn't mean it's operating when being commanded by the PCM. Same thing as I mentioned above can happen if the PCM commands purge flow and that solenoid vent at the canister does not open to atmosphere.
Carefully blowing air into the plastic hose connector fitting on the canister air exits through the filler when held open.
I'm unsure of how much differential there is but it seems to flow easily.
Rich
08-13-2011, 05:21 PM
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Judging from a lack of "I had that happen to me" responses I guess this is rare or unnoticed.
Hope it doesn't happen to you and I guess we both could get a rock guard. Out of sight, out of mind.
BTW- I moved to PA from So Cal back in 95. Used to live south of Corona and grew up in Santa Ana.
08-13-2011, 06:03 PM
#10
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1) The EVAP Purge Solenoid at the engine is opened allowing engine vacuum to pull the canister vapors into the intake.
2) The Canister Vent Solenoid is opened to atmosphere so that the as vacuum is applied to the tank and canister, the tank does not get sucked in.
Something is going wrong with step 2 in your case. Like I said, just because the solenoid is working when you apply power to it doesn't mean that it is working when the PCM tries to open it. You could have an issue at the harness. Take a look at the connector at the solenoid and make sure it is clean.
Ford IDS has a function in which you can command purge at will. This is how a dealer technician would start to diagnose your issue.
If this is happening all the time when you drive (the PCM is always commanding purge when you are driving) it should be pretty easy for a tech to diagnose.