ronemca

* Let me say the following right up front: I haven't searched the forum much at this point. I joined quite recently, and I was very open about the fact that my 4x4 purchase is a ways off. But if I can find a couple of guys who know their stuff -- and are willing to share their knowledge - I think it would be helpful to many more people than just myself. Meanwhile I fully intend to read...and lurk...and pop in here & there from time to time.

I'm going to buy a 5.0L XLT SC - very likely new.
It will be a DD.
It will have all the bells & whistles.
I will very likely upgrade the front bumper to one that houses a winch.
I will absolutely positively be lifting it - probably 3", but perhaps 4" - and I want it to sit level.
I will very likely upgrade/up-size the factory tires.
I will not be plowing, rock-crawling, wading or dramatic hill climbing.

Here's what I want the truck to do:
I want to be able to go through mud, dirt and especially deep snow without getting stuck.
I want to be able to tow a modest trailer occasionally.
I want to be unafraid to drive over parking blocks (at very low speed).
I want the suspension to absorb/dampen the roughness of gravel roads, Provincial Park forest roads and un-maintained surfaces without the entire truck tipping 22 degrees to one side or the other every time a tire dips into a pothole or runs over a dead possum.

Of course part of the not-getting-stuck function will be tire-related, but I'm not going to discuss that here - this thread is strictly about upgrading the suspension. I'm not heading to Baja, but I've seen some of these guys blasting along rough surfaces and hurtling over dunes - launching their trucks clear off the ground and landing 50 or 75 feet later. And they all seem to have tremendous travel in the shocks! Factory shocks seem to be limited to 6" or 7" of travel...whereas the Pre-runners and above look like they have closer to 14". I'm just pulling numbers out of a hat here - I don't really know the actual specs. But that progressive damping and extra-long travel is what I'm looking for. Within reason.

If I creep up on a bump in the road that's 4" tall...and I inch over it at rock-crawling speed...of course the truck will lean. The shock will compress minimally (or not at all) and that corner of the truck will rise up 4" to roll over the lump and then drop back down on the other side. I'm okay with that.

But if I hit that same bump at 20mph - I'd like the shock to react - and compress - and absorb/dampen the sudden vertical deflection instead of shooting that corner of the truck 4" in the air. Is this a pipe dream? *I don't need or want the truck to ride like a Caddy; stiff suspension makes me happy. But my old Explorer, and my Toyota and my '16 Ranger all seemed to be stupidly stiff - they would jump up at most speeds (It seemed like the shocks were unwilling to react much at all)

And it would be even better if - instead of a 4" bump - it was a 4" deep pothole...and the suspension dampened that vertical deflection in a similar manner.

I also want the truck to feel planted on pavement. I don't mind if it has some body roll on corners and off-ramps...but I don't want to feel like it's going to tip if I push the speed a bit. Here again tires will play a big role, but I'm trying to provide as much info as possible.

Can this be done without being sponsored by Bilstein or Rancho? Is it within the $$ reach of mere mortals?
Does this characteristic/configuration have a name?

Many thanks in advance!!

jdunk54nl

From the way you are making this sound, you want a mid/long travel suspension. If you are going mid/long travel, you are looking at a nice chunk of change and any "normal" lift kit is out of the question at that point. You would have to customize to get much over 2" lift (most mid travels that I see are about a 2" lift). In that case, check the sticky about mid/long travel suspension for price shopping...you will probably get a little scared.

The other options is the following:

If you go 4"/6" lift you are looking at about $2k for lift with install for cheaper lifts or $3k for "better" lifts if you can't install yourself.

Fox 2.5" with remote reservoir and DSC is about the best option you have that is mass produced for 4"/6" lifts. Those will run you about $2k. Otherwise you would have to go custom for Icon/King, which is fine but more costly.


I have Fox 2.5" w/ dsc in the front and raptor rear 3.0" take offs in the rear and I can tell you, I still feel 4" bumps/holes. The truck absorbs them, but you still know they are there. It rides nice, but definitely not mid/long travel nice or anywhere near my Polaris RZR (customized mid travel) nice.

Also you are about maxed out with levels at 2.5" of front lift. 3" gets to stressing driveline angles/ball joints too much. For street only that probably isn't an issue. But I wouldn't trust that off roading because you are asking for a upper ball joint to break and leave you stranded in the middle of nowhere.

ronemca

Thanks very much for the thoughtful & informative response!

Is it do-able to detach the suspension attachments and rotate the axle a few degrees in order to straighten the driveline alignment? Well - I guess technically, anything is "do-able" ($$$$) but do any of us do this? or is it a gigantic can of worms? Are there such things as double-articulated universal joints? Or does anybody split the drive shaft into two sections?

When you say "...you are about maxed out with levels at 2.5" of front lift" The first thing I think of is that my '16 Ranger was delivered with the *** end about 1" higher than the front. Assuming the F-series will be similar...that means I'd only be able to raise the rear end about 1.5". But obviously there are thousands of trucks around with a lot more than that, so how do they do it?

Florida_F150

I agree with everything jdunk54nl said in his post. Pretty much spot on.

You have two primary options as jdunk54nl mentions:

(1) Lift your truck with a suspension lift (for clarity's sake, let's just refer to this part as dropping the front differential and raising the rear end), combined with:
* Replacing all easily replaceable factory suspension parts with better, more off-road oriented versions, including:
- Front Coilovers to replace the factory shock and spring combo
- Rear Shocks
- Optionally replace the rear leaf springs
- Front Upper Control Arms
- Bump Stops
- Wheels and Tires (I know not technically suspension and we're not discussing it here, but including it for completeness)

The above will get you a very capable daily driver and off-road vehicle that will tackle a wide variety of terrain. "Comfort" is subjective. That probably won't get you the super-soft ride you're looking for, but it will be way better than stock. On the plus side, you're looking at a few thousand dollars vs. much more.

The other primary option is the mid or long travel route, which some might say is partially re-building your truck (vs just replacing a few simple parts). This will cost you, probably upwards of $10,000, likely a good deal more. Of course, for that kind of money, you'll get the results you describe in your original post.

This company Baja Kits seems to be in a lot of threads. They may be able to chime in. (See thread below). I believe the build in that thread cost $40,000 (on top of the cost of the truck). They do have prerunner kits that seem to be bolt-on and more affordable. That might be something to look into that is cost-wise in between the two main options mentioned above.

https://www.f150forum.com/f118/bajak...roject-368556/

Florida_F150

To answer your question about the front lift maxing out around 2.5", we're referring to just the front because only the front has independent suspension. If you were going to "level it", meaning raise the front without dropping the diff, the max you can go is 2", maybe 2.5" before the CV axles coming out of the front diff are at too extreme of an angle and you experience issues with the upper control arms. With a proper suspension lift, referring to dropping the diff, you can go the standard 4" or 6" without issue since the diff drop corrects the CV angles and UCA angles.

The rear is not an issue since it's a solid axle in the back, with leaf springs. The rear is raised by simply replacing the factory lift blocks with lift blocks that are taller by the number of inches you want to raise the back. Optionally you can replace the stock leaf springs with aftermarket leaf springs which can also raise the rear.

ronemca

Excellent! I've watched some vids now, and I understand the issues more clearly. I recently discovered that a company manufactures a two-piece driveshaft for the S550 Mustang. I'm not certain why there would be a market for this particular item...but since it's fresh in my mind, it got me wondering why there are no double-articulated output shafts available for the F-series trucks(?) I can see how a diff drop would be the way to go for dramatic suspension lifts...but I'm surprised that nobody has engineered a way to deliver a lift of somewhere between 2" and 4" without the frame cutting and crossmember replacement.

And in keeping with that...

I understand that the driveline has been engineered to work at the angles as assembled. Therefore - in theory -- any change to that is inadvisable. i.e.: it will introduce a certain amount of risk to some components. Therefore -- in an absolute sense -- if an owner is going to pound his truck around, and/or boost its HP, he really should drop the diff for any lift beyond factory. Okay. But I realize there is a certain amount of flexibility here. If the CV joint factory angle is...say...0° or 1°, then increasing that deflection to...say...8° is not a big deal. The collective experience of thousands of F-series owners and techs has shown that this deflection can be pushed to...say...11°, or 16° or 21°. Whatever the equivalent of 2.5" of lift represents. And under 90% of circumstances it will be fine. I get that.

And the turning point between "reversible" and "permanent" seems to be the diff drop scenario. It appears that -- if an owner decides to go the diff drop route -- there is no option but to cut into the frame. Is there no compromise? Nobody makes a bolt-on kit that can be UN-bolted later? So does that mean that a very conservative and careful owner that wants a lift of...say...2.75" really should drop the diff? What if he wants 3"? Is there such a thing as a diff-drop kit that delivers only 2.5" of lift? Or do they start at 4"? (More?)

Florida_F150

Everything you said is accurate.

And the short answer to your question is you are correct: There seems to be pretty much a "no man's land" between 2.5" and 4". You can level safely up to 2.5" with no diff drop, or you can go whole hog and drop the diff with lifts starting at 4". I'm not aware of much, if anything, in that area between 2.5" and 4". I believe some manufacturers do make a 3", but as you mention, while "doable" most find it "inadvisable", especially if you intend to do any off-roading.

jdunk54nl

The diff drop is actually a 5" drop for most kits. That way companies can make one diff drop for both their 4" lift and 6" lifts. There is more too it though for actual suspension lift kits. There is also a new steering knuckle that raises the upper control arm attachment point and new lower control arm attachment points to lower them via the new cross members. A suspension lift kits usually does not actually achieve any more ground clearance than stock. The ground clearance addition comes from the bigger tires.

You can always go back from a lift, it just requires welding and going back to your original knuckle in the front.

Also the reason most levels do not go beyond 2.5" is due to the factory upper control arm making contact with the spring on your coilover on down travel or you can't actually align the truck properly due to the adjustments needed not being possible with stock. This is why a lot of people that off road and go beyond the 2" of level find that they replace their UCA's due to that down travel issue.



It really sounds like you are wanting the best performing suspension but not wanting to spend the money. Unfortunately, you do not get that in the off roading world. You need to decide what your budget is, and then decide what you can afford to do. On that note, what is your budget for this, if we know that we can better steer you in what you should do based on the amount you actually want to spend.

Here are the break points for good off road suspension.

These do not include anything but the basics (No UCA's, etc) UCA's are about $1000 for the icon delta joints which are about the best option currently. So add that to the level or lift kits if you go that route. With the lift, you don't "need" it but to get the 9"-10" of travel (stock is 7-8" of travel) you will. The first limiting factor is the UCA on front suspension travel. I also did not include install price in these.

Puck level ~$100
Bilstein level ~$500 for all four corners
Level shocks 2.0's ~$1500 all 4 corners
Leveling shocks 2.5" ~$3000 all 4 corners
Combination of 2.5" front and 2.0" rears ~$2000

Lift kit with factory shocks ~$1500
Lift kit with fox shocks all around ~$4000
Lift kit with custom shocks ~$5000+

These options below will, by far, have the best ride. But most of this is in the stock to 2" lift range.
Mid travel ~$7,000 for just front suspension stuff. This doesn't include new fenders which you'll need.
Long Travel ~$10,000 for just front suspension stuff. This doesn't include new fenders which you'll need.

WarSurfer

The mid/long travel tech thread link is in my sig.

The objective, from a capability perspective, should always be the least lift for the most tire. This way you get ground clearance but not at the expense of too much center of gravity increase. Read the tech thread, most of what you are asking about is in there.

If you didn't want to absorb the cost of mid/long travel (Raptor take offs are the cheapest route), you can always run cut out flares or fenders with larger openings and the largest tire you can fit without lifting the truck. IIRC the newer trucks are able to run 37s with only a level kit and some minor trimming. Torsen up front and locker out back and you'll go just about anywhere.

jp360cj

On a long wheelbase truck like the F150, driveshaft and u joint angles are usually much of an issue. If running a typical single cardan (1 u joint at each end) driveshaft, as long as the tcase output is parallel with the rear axle pinion, and the u joint operating angles are under 15*, there won't be any issues. If you try to point the pinion at the tcase output and run a single cardan shaft, you will have vibration issues.

I have no idea what you mean by "double-articulated universal joint"...Operationally, a u-joint is a u-joint is a u-joint. There are such things as double cardan driveshafts, which are a type of CV shaft where 1 end has 2 u joints and the other end has one. In this application, the single u joint needs a 0* operating angle (pinion pointing at the tcase output). Although this can operate at higher angles without vibrations, it's more expensive, more complicated, and will bind sooner than a single cardan shaft. No reason to use one if you don't need it.

As far as splitting the driveshaft in 2 pieces...This is normally done because of driveshaft length. A longer driveshaft is susceptible to wobble and breaking it in 2 pieces eliminates that. However, it typically makes the u joint angles even worse and gets more complicated with the center carrier bearing. Not sure about other years, but for 11-14, all trucks over 145" wheelbase have a 2 piece driveshaft and 145" 2wd do as well.

Again, not sure exactly what you mean by "double-articulated output shafts", but if you mean a 2 piece driveshaft, then they are available and came factory on some F150s, but again, I see no benefit in one for a lifted truck that didn't originally have one.

Lifting the front with a leveling kit is about more than just the axle shaft CV angles...It's also putting the ball joints as high angles. Without moving the control arms apart, you can only do so much. That said, there are leveling kits that advertise 3" (usually in the form of adjustable leveling struts like Boss or Icons) that come with new control arms (or maybe just uppers, I don't remember).

I think the reason don't see much between the 2.5" leveling and 4" lift kits is that you can only push the stock joints (ball and CV) so far without moving other stuff. The parts needed would be the same as a 4" or 6" kits, just smaller. Cost would basically be the same (compare 4" and 6" lift kit prices and they are usually very close), be the same amount of work, and if you drop the front diff and everything 1 or 2", but only gain 1/2" or even 1" of lift, you really haven't gained any ground clearance.