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Great write up but I have a different opinion on the subject. If most people use the fader and put all the sound to the front, most people will say the sound system sound worse than when the fader is put in the middle. If I gave my clients a setup where all the soundstage is in the front similar to a concert I'd be out of business quickly. You'd have to wonder why all 2 seater sports cars still have rear speakers following this logic. You could argue that the rear seat passengers want sound in a 4 passenger vehicle but what about the manufacturers that make 2 seaters. Why would they waste money on rear speakers if they didn't improve on the overall sound? Correctly balancing the rear sound in my F150 front to back sounds amazing. I would hate it if only sound were coming out of my front speakers. Every single car at any audio show/convention makes use of rear speakers as well. I think each of us have differing opinions on this and that's fine. I don't think there is an end all statement that is true about only running front speakers period. That's my 2 cents.
Couple things:
When you fade all the sound the front, you are actually boosting the output of the front channels. This boosting can cause distortion which why when faded all the way front, the sound can be tiny. The distortion is the output signal clipping. That's why it sounds worse. Think about about when you set the gains on your amp. You set them at a predetermined input level. In your example, suddenly you fade all signal to the front on the head unit and boost the input signal to your amp a couple dB and now you are clipping your outputs and listening to pure distortion. Of course that won't sound good.
You might say, "but if I go to a stock vehicle without an amp and fade everything forward, it still sounds like crap" Thats also understandable because while there is no gain clipping, there is also zero eq. It's gonna sound terrible either way.
When you are at concert, there is still sound coming from behind you due to the sound waves reflecting off the venues wall. Obviously the focus of the sound is still in front of you. Why do you think a symphony hall is shaped the way it is? There aren't speakers in the rear. Just instruments in the front. We can use a dsp and eq in a vehicle to create this effect more efficiently vs rear speakers off axis.
2 seater sports cars, in most cases, have rear speakers for the same reason ford installs a blended left/right "center" in our trucks. It's to give the illusion of a full sound stage but all it does is hurt imaging. It's generally only there to compensate for lower power output and again, poor eq. The other reason two seat sports cars have speakers near the head rest is because generally sports car have a removable top and the power output of the factory system is simply not enough to keep up with the wind noise with the top down. So they add more speakers to improve the output.
Not every car at a show uses rear fill. Especially in sq shows. I know this for certain.
Lastly, If your front stage only sounds like it is in front of you only then your tuning is incorrect. And that's not an insult. It took me a LONG time to figure this out myself. You don't need rears to create that auditory illusion. You just need proper speaker placement, time alignment, and eq. Your front stage with no rear fill should feel wider than your dash board and deeper than your windshield. As music fades from left to right, you should almost think the sound started from behind your left shoulder. You should believe there are rear speakers playing when they aren't.
In no way am I saying rear fill is bad. It can be very valuable but only IF it is implemented properly. And to implement it properly takes a lot of work and a lot of processing to do it right. For 99.9% of the builds we talk about on this forum, I would put up quite a bit of money that a front stage only truck properly tuned will sound better than a truck with off axis rears faded in and a lack of proper processing. I only came to conclusion based on factual evidence, it's not a theory. It just took me longer to realize what was hurting my system more than helping. My tune is what makes or breaks the system. End of the day, if someone can't get their system where they want and just feel they need rear speakers, well they can easily add them. All I'm saying is don't waste your time or money from the beginning until you truly know what your system is capable of.
Lastly, my truck is finally fully tuned ( I think lol). The system, in my opinion, is sounding absolutely incredible! Anyone in the Austin area or going to the Aggieland Invitational this weekend, let me know. Happy to give some demos and I appreciate any and all constructive feedback!
I replied in the other post since it's repeated info.
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When you fade all the sound the front, you are actually boosting the output of the front channels. This boosting can cause distortion which why when faded all the way front, the sound can be tiny. The distortion is the output signal clipping. That's why it sounds worse. Think about about when you set the gains on your amp. You set them at a predetermined input level. In your example, suddenly you fade all signal to the front on the head unit and boost the input signal to your amp a couple dB and now you are clipping your outputs and listening to pure distortion. Of course that won't sound good.
You might say, "but if I go to a stock vehicle without an amp and fade everything forward, it still sounds like crap" Thats also understandable because while there is no gain clipping, there is also zero eq. It's gonna sound terrible either way.
When you are at concert, there is still sound coming from behind you due to the sound waves reflecting off the venues wall. Obviously the focus of the sound is still in front of you. Why do you think a symphony hall is shaped the way it is? There aren't speakers in the rear. Just instruments in the front. We can use a dsp and eq in a vehicle to create this effect more efficiently vs rear speakers off axis.
2 seater sports cars, in most cases, have rear speakers for the same reason ford installs a blended left/right "center" in our trucks. It's to give the illusion of a full sound stage but all it does is hurt imaging. It's generally only there to compensate for lower power output and again, poor eq. The other reason two seat sports cars have speakers near the head rest is because generally sports car have a removable top and the power output of the factory system is simply not enough to keep up with the wind noise with the top down. So they add more speakers to improve the output.
Not every car at a show uses rear fill. Especially in sq shows. I know this for certain.
Lastly, If your front stage only sounds like it is in front of you only then your tuning is incorrect. And that's not an insult. It took me a LONG time to figure this out myself. You don't need rears to create that auditory illusion. You just need proper speaker placement, time alignment, and eq. Your front stage with no rear fill should feel wider than your dash board and deeper than your windshield. As music fades from left to right, you should almost think the sound started from behind your left shoulder. You should believe there are rear speakers playing when they aren't.
In no way am I saying rear fill is bad. It can be very valuable but only IF it is implemented properly. And to implement it properly takes a lot of work and a lot of processing to do it right. For 99.9% of the builds we talk about on this forum, I would put up quite a bit of money that a front stage only truck properly tuned will sound better than a truck with off axis rears faded in and a lack of proper processing. I only came to conclusion based on factual evidence, it's not a theory. It just took me longer to realize what was hurting my system more than helping. My tune is what makes or breaks the system. End of the day, if someone can't get their system where they want and just feel they need rear speakers, well they can easily add them. All I'm saying is don't waste your time or money from the beginning until you truly know what your system is capable of.
Lastly, my truck is finally fully tuned ( I think lol). The system, in my opinion, is sounding absolutely incredible! Anyone in the Austin area or going to the Aggieland Invitational this weekend, let me know. Happy to give some demos and I appreciate any and all constructive feedback!
To me properly tuned rears make sense. I may not be able to get them where I want them and end up running without them but I will make the attempt none the less since I have speakers to play with.
As far as fading front to rear, I've found myself on stock systems fading more to the rear, like maybe 60% rear 40%front at higher volumes. Depends on the car and system though. On many this helped remove noticable distortion. Once I've built my system out though there should be no need.
DHM,
Are you sure the fader is boosting the volume on your model year? I checked my 14 and with the low level variable output set via forscan, my output remains identical no matter the fade position between fully front and center. It will start reducing the front output when I fade from center to rear, but it never increases the front output when I fade front from the center position, just decreases the rear.
This is why I was OK with the audio fully faded to the front to "remove" the rear speakers and then can easily fade towards center when I have passengers to "turn on" the rear speakers.
They'll fit. I have a Metra set in mine that are marked for 2015-2018 (and I am sure they work with the 2019).
I used the Metra 6X9 kit for my Morels and fit great (I went with the Morel Temp Ultra 692) . If you are going to go with separates, I would recommend finding someone with a 3-d printer and having them make these up. They work great for any tweeters.
DHM,
Are you sure the fader is boosting the volume on your model year? I checked my 14 and with the low level variable output set via forscan, my output remains identical no matter the fade position between fully front and center. It will start reducing the front output when I fade from center to rear, but it never increases the front output when I fade front from the center position, just decreases the rear.
This is why I was OK with the audio fully faded to the front to "remove" the rear speakers and then can easily fade towards center when I have passengers to "turn on" the rear speakers.
I believe DHM and I have the same 2018 model and mine operates as you've described. We are simply at a difference of opinion on using the rear speakers. I love to use them and he disagrees. Again as stated before we all have a preference. There is no correct absolute answer on this subject since it's all subjective. It's just like my customers that want 10 tweeters in their regular build or the guy that wants 40k watts of bass and one set of mids and tweeters. We all want different things.
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Serving the forum for over 8 years
Brands we sell include: Kicker,NavTV, PAC, CARiD, Dayton, Second Skin, Audio Control, Skar Audio, JL Audio, Focal and more.
PM me for special pricing as our contracts do not allow for posting prices publicly.
I used the Metra 6X9 kit for my Morels and fit great (I went with the Morel Temp Ultra 692) . If you are going to go with separates, I would recommend finding someone with a 3-d printer and having them make these up. They work great for any tweeters.
That's awesome to share this link. I'll give these a try myself. I ended up using regular strap to secure my tweeters but looking forward to trying these instead.
__________________
Serving the forum for over 8 years
Brands we sell include: Kicker,NavTV, PAC, CARiD, Dayton, Second Skin, Audio Control, Skar Audio, JL Audio, Focal and more.
PM me for special pricing as our contracts do not allow for posting prices publicly.
DHM,
Are you sure the fader is boosting the volume on your model year? I checked my 14 and with the low level variable output set via forscan, my output remains identical no matter the fade position between fully front and center. It will start reducing the front output when I fade from center to rear, but it never increases the front output when I fade front from the center position, just decreases the rear.
This is why I was OK with the audio fully faded to the front to "remove" the rear speakers and then can easily fade towards center when I have passengers to "turn on" the rear speakers.
Not sure on our trucks. It's a blanket statement for the sake of the conversation. Obviously the most notorious reason fading to front is going to sound terrible is either distortion due to clipping or (in our trucks) because of the complete lack of eq and complete lack of frequency response correction from the factory. You move all the sound to the front you lose half the sound in your truck. That's a fact. But that's not because rears are needed. That's because complete lack of eq. Before anyone says, "well I have a dsp and I tuned my truck and when I fade forward it still sounds like crap" My question would be, how did you originally tune your truck? Did you tune it with rears as part of the equation? If yes, there you go. You can't just just remove speakers and think it's going to sound ok. You have to start over and retune completely without the rears as part of it.
As far as needing the rears, my original post is based on substantiated mathematical evidence and my personal experience which is also the same experience of many world class sq car builders. It's proven and can't be disputed. I'm not the scientist or mathematician who came up these facts so don't shoot the messenger.
Like I said in the beginning of my post, I started my build with rears. Heck, I started all my previous builds with rears. It wasn't until I started to get serious into car audio that I started to question the rears. As my tuning ability increased, the frequency response of the entire system playing together with rears became almost impossible to tune. I researched, searched, talked to other enthusiasts before I came to my conclusion.
Here is the reality. If you believe rears are necessary to create a full sound. To create a stereo image that comes from multiple points with in the vehicle. To create a stage that envelopes you. Your tuning is off.
Everyone's experience and exposure to a "good" sounding system is entirely subjective. You don't know what you are missing until you go back to the drawing board enough to get it right and then suddenly, you experience a revelation. That was exactly the path I took. I believed in rears because I thought that was the only way to get the ambiance effect I was after. What I thought I was getting was "audio envelopment", what I was actually getting was distributed madness. That simply doesn't sound good once my exposure to good changed. Now I know different. And I know this because I get in my truck and I drive around with biggest damn smile on my face because of how proud I am with this system. No rears in sight.
But I'll be at Aggieland Invitational this weekend so I am looking to getting more feedback from others. Come on out everyone!
Not sure on our trucks. It's a blanket statement for the sake of the conversation. Obviously the most notorious reason fading to front is going to sound terrible is either distortion due to clipping or (in our trucks) because of the complete lack of eq and complete lack of frequency response correction from the factory. You move all the sound to the front you lose half the sound in your truck. That's a fact. But that's not because rears are needed. That's because complete lack of eq. Before anyone says, "well I have a dsp and I tuned my truck and when I fade forward it still sounds like crap" My question would be, how did you originally tune your truck? Did you tune it with rears as part of the equation? If yes, there you go. You can't just just remove speakers and think it's going to sound ok. You have to start over and retune completely without the rears as part of it.
As far as needing the rears, my original post is based on substantiated mathematical evidence and my personal experience which is also the same experience of many world class sq car builders. It's proven and can't be disputed. I'm not the scientist or mathematician who came up these facts so don't shoot the messenger.
Like I said in the beginning of my post, I started my build with rears. Heck, I started all my previous builds with rears. It wasn't until I started to get serious into car audio that I started to question the rears. As my tuning ability increased, the frequency response of the entire system playing together with rears became almost impossible to tune. I researched, searched, talked to other enthusiasts before I came to my conclusion.
Here is the reality. If you believe rears are necessary to create a full sound. To create a stereo image that comes from multiple points with in the vehicle. To create a stage that envelopes you. Your tuning is off.
Everyone's experience and exposure to a "good" sounding system is entirely subjective. You don't know what you are missing until you go back to the drawing board enough to get it right and then suddenly, you experience a revelation. That was exactly the path I took. I believed in rears because I thought that was the only way to get the ambiance effect I was after. What I thought I was getting was "audio envelopment", what I was actually getting was distributed madness. That simply doesn't sound good once my exposure to good changed. Now I know different. And I know this because I get in my truck and I drive around with biggest damn smile on my face because of how proud I am with this system. No rears in sight.
But I'll be at Aggieland Invitational this weekend so I am looking to getting more feedback from others. Come on out everyone!
For the rear I simply modified stock mounts to retain stock wiring connector.
Destroy stock speaker removing it.
cut wires going from terminal to speaker
used exacto knife to finish removing speaker arms.
placed speaker in mount where I wanted it
drilled starter holes.
used hot glue and then secured with screws using starter holes I made.
soldered wires to terminals....
installed in truck
Will work on getting all my wiring done over the next few days and add amps, DSP and SUB's
04-23-2019, 05:33 PM
