Ford 5.4 3V Triton Deffective Design
09-03-2013, 04:01 AM
#31
Senior Member
Generally speaking, the biggest piece of advice I have received on the 5.4 cam phaser/valve train issue is by using the appropriate motorcraft oil filter prevents a lot of this from happening due to its durability and silicone anti drain back valves. I can't speak for everybody who's had/who never had this issue and what filter they've used but I've been told by plenty of techs who tell me that by using a lot of the different brands of aftermarket oil filters with cheaply made filters and anti drain back valves is that the valves and rubber components come apart and plug the small oil passages to the cam phasers and valve train causing lack of lubrication. Or using an oil filter with no anti drain back valve at all. Like I said, this is what I've been told, been shown in the shop during engine tear downs and some of the root causes from incorrect or cheap filters. Take this with a grain of salt, every situation is different, and I'm not in any way saying that any valve train component never failed on its own even using motorcraft oil filters.
09-03-2013, 07:12 AM
#32
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Generally speaking, the biggest piece of advice I have received on the 5.4 cam phaser/valve train issue is by using the appropriate motorcraft oil filter prevents a lot of this from happening due to its durability and silicone anti drain back valves. I can't speak for everybody who's had/who never had this issue and what filter they've used but I've been told by plenty of techs who tell me that by using a lot of the different brands of aftermarket oil filters with cheaply made filters and anti drain back valves is that the valves and rubber components come apart and plug the small oil passages to the cam phasers and valve train causing lack of lubrication. Or using an oil filter with no anti drain back valve at all. Like I said, this is what I've been told, been shown in the shop during engine tear downs and some of the root causes from incorrect or cheap filters. Take this with a grain of salt, every situation is different, and I'm not in any way saying that any valve train component never failed on its own even using motorcraft oil filters.
1. Ford has issued TSB stating that some phaser noise is normal. I think that is a ludicrous claim by Ford as my truck as well as many others were not noisy when new and some still claim to have quiet high mileage trucks.
2. Ford has reduced the size of the VCT solenoid orifice presumably to increase oil pressure at phaser. Ford wouldn't be doing this just to help out the folks that use the wrong filter. Clearly at least the original solenoids were not maintaining enough pressure for proper phaser operation.
3. I've read but do not have personal experience with that the phaser has also been redesigned for the 5.4s.
4. I agree that aftermarket filters may cause temporary oil leak back that causes start up rattle however again this is a symptom that seems to occur on higher mileage trucks where if the cause is a check valve issue with filter should occur immediately after you begin using the aftermarket filter and should be resolved immediately after switching to the correct filter. My experience is that the rattle occurs inconsistently. I believe it begins after tensioners have busted a seal or generally begin to wear and leak.
5. Other possible culprits may be the metal lost from the front cover after chain rattle begins may be clogging up passages.
6. I've seem pictures where broken chain guides get sucked up an wedges in the oil pump strainer and I'm certain that at the very least must be affecting oil pressure.
The potential culprits are many but they all seem to focus around this engine. If you google Ford engine tapping you will find that the results are almost exclusively 5.4 3vs. The 4.6 3v is identical yet you rarely hear of any of these problems with those or other ford modular engines.
09-07-2013, 11:12 AM
#33
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Well took passenger side valve cover and cam off and found the source of all the tapping. Every single lash adjuster on passenger side was collapsed. Most of the rocker arms were in good shape except for 3 or 4 that had too much play on the wheels. My head at 115k of Mobil 1 synthetic was spotless clean aluminum no varnish or sludge at all. There was also no indication of over heating from lack of oil. I am now fairly convinced that the problem with these engines may jus be that the lash adjusters are pure junk. Although I'm confident that my tapping will go away I'm also confident I will be doing this job again in 70k to 100k miles if I am lucky. And by the way camshaft can be easily removed with spring compressor tool. Worst part of his job is getting the valve cover off. Everything else is cake.
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fringe_remnant (09-07-2013)
09-07-2013, 07:18 PM
#34
I LIKE TRUCKS
For those of you whisper quiet 5.4 3vs with over 100K congratulations, you lucked out. For those with the tell tale diesel sounds or valve train tap you may want to read on. My crappy for a V8 idle was referred to the dealer at about 24K miles and I was told not to worry "these engines idle like that". My diesel sounds were referred to the dealer at 55K miles and I was told not to worry "these engines are noisy, its normal". At 114K I decided to take truck into dealer because my usual by now tapping sound started to get louder. Here is where things get interesting. Before tearing into engine tech told me engine will likely need to be replaced. I said hold on a minute what I have is a valve train issue, likely a valve lash adjuster or rocker, he said they'll take a look at it and call me back. Well today I received the call that the engine was beyond economical repair and would have to be replaced. Not satisfied with what sounded like customer raping bs, I asked what specifically about a bad lifter or lifters and cam and phaser and anything else on the head can possibly cost more than an entire engine replacement? Service staff couldn't really answer to my satisfaction and referred me to manager. Manager stated that when the 5.4 3vs start exhibiting cam phaser, valve lash adjuster, and/or rocker arm failure that it is a sign of oil starvation on the top end and therefore at that point all top end components are beyond repair and most be replaced at a cost that almost exceeds engine replacement. My particular engine was sludge free and no oil blockage could be identified. I asked them if these Tritons are basically 100K mile engines and he said "what can I tell you I'm sitting on a Ford seat". He went on to tell me that he sees 4 to 5 of these trucks a week and they stopped repairing the engines because the noises would go away for a while and eventually return. He states that al the components start to seep because of the wear and the process repeats itself.
I though I'd fill everyone in because there is info all over the net concerning this issue however it tends be in bits pieces. Basically these engine have a design flaw that starves that valve train of oil and in some cases like mine result in an engine that sounds like a sewing machine and in other instances results in very early engine failure. Do not waste your time and money fixing valve train noises unless your just counting on a temporary fix to pass the truck on to some unsuspecting smuck. If you're fortunate enough to have a low mileage truck that is still quiet get rid of it sooner rather then later.
I for one have a brand new looking truck inside and out that's on it's last legs and costs more to fix than its worth and the repair option is putting back in the same POS engine that needs to be replaced
. Oh and the 4R75W, another Found On Road Dear engineering marvel. I was told that's crapping out too. And yes tranny has always been dealer services as scheduled and engine has always had Motocrap filter and 5 20 synthetic oil.
Unfortunately now I need a new truck and a faced with the dilemma of having to choose reliability over styling and finish. That only leaves me with GM or RAM as potential options. I feel very burned by Ford and am afraid that the 5.0 or EB may be equally as unreliable as the 5.4 in the long run. I hope this will spare someone from the crap I'm currently dealing with
I though I'd fill everyone in because there is info all over the net concerning this issue however it tends be in bits pieces. Basically these engine have a design flaw that starves that valve train of oil and in some cases like mine result in an engine that sounds like a sewing machine and in other instances results in very early engine failure. Do not waste your time and money fixing valve train noises unless your just counting on a temporary fix to pass the truck on to some unsuspecting smuck. If you're fortunate enough to have a low mileage truck that is still quiet get rid of it sooner rather then later.
I for one have a brand new looking truck inside and out that's on it's last legs and costs more to fix than its worth and the repair option is putting back in the same POS engine that needs to be replaced
. Oh and the 4R75W, another Found On Road Dear engineering marvel. I was told that's crapping out too. And yes tranny has always been dealer services as scheduled and engine has always had Motocrap filter and 5 20 synthetic oil.Unfortunately now I need a new truck and a faced with the dilemma of having to choose reliability over styling and finish. That only leaves me with GM or RAM as potential options. I feel very burned by Ford and am afraid that the 5.0 or EB may be equally as unreliable as the 5.4 in the long run. I hope this will spare someone from the crap I'm currently dealing with
09-07-2013, 09:20 PM
#35
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I have an 04 5.4 3v with 115k. Just finished taking off cams and replacing lash adjusters and rockers. Every single lash adjuster on both sides were trashed no spring action at all. In total I had about 4 rockers with too much play on the wheel others seemed fine. The heads were completely clean no varnish or sludge at all. The tapping is gone all I have now is the diesel sound. If I were you I would just live with the tapping unless you start having performance issues. The dealerships down here flat out told me they won't attempt to repair because they can't eliminate all the noise out of these engines. I also spoke to and independent shop that no longer attempts to cure the noises because they return.
09-07-2013, 09:22 PM
#36
Senior Member
For those of you whisper quiet 5.4 3vs with over 100K congratulations, you lucked out. For those with the tell tale diesel sounds or valve train tap you may want to read on. My crappy for a V8 idle was referred to the dealer at about 24K miles and I was told not to worry "these engines idle like that". My diesel sounds were referred to the dealer at 55K miles and I was told not to worry "these engines are noisy, its normal". At 114K I decided to take truck into dealer because my usual by now tapping sound started to get louder. Here is where things get interesting. Before tearing into engine tech told me engine will likely need to be replaced. I said hold on a minute what I have is a valve train issue, likely a valve lash adjuster or rocker, he said they'll take a look at it and call me back. Well today I received the call that the engine was beyond economical repair and would have to be replaced. Not satisfied with what sounded like customer raping bs, I asked what specifically about a bad lifter or lifters and cam and phaser and anything else on the head can possibly cost more than an entire engine replacement? Service staff couldn't really answer to my satisfaction and referred me to manager. Manager stated that when the 5.4 3vs start exhibiting cam phaser, valve lash adjuster, and/or rocker arm failure that it is a sign of oil starvation on the top end and therefore at that point all top end components are beyond repair and most be replaced at a cost that almost exceeds engine replacement. My particular engine was sludge free and no oil blockage could be identified. I asked them if these Tritons are basically 100K mile engines and he said "what can I tell you I'm sitting on a Ford seat". He went on to tell me that he sees 4 to 5 of these trucks a week and they stopped repairing the engines because the noises would go away for a while and eventually return. He states that al the components start to seep because of the wear and the process repeats itself.
I though I'd fill everyone in because there is info all over the net concerning this issue however it tends be in bits pieces. Basically these engine have a design flaw that starves that valve train of oil and in some cases like mine result in an engine that sounds like a sewing machine and in other instances results in very early engine failure. Do not waste your time and money fixing valve train noises unless your just counting on a temporary fix to pass the truck on to some unsuspecting smuck. If you're fortunate enough to have a low mileage truck that is still quiet get rid of it sooner rather then later.
I for one have a brand new looking truck inside and out that's on it's last legs and costs more to fix than its worth and the repair option is putting back in the same POS engine that needs to be replaced. Oh and the 4R75W, another Found On Road Dear engineering marvel. I was told that's crapping out too. And yes tranny has always been dealer services as scheduled and engine has always had Motocrap filter and 5 20 synthetic oil.
Unfortunately now I need a new truck and a faced with the dilemma of having to choose reliability over styling and finish. That only leaves me with GM or RAM as potential options. I feel very burned by Ford and am afraid that the 5.0 or EB may be equally as unreliable as the 5.4 in the long run. I hope this will spare someone from the crap I'm currently dealing with
I though I'd fill everyone in because there is info all over the net concerning this issue however it tends be in bits pieces. Basically these engine have a design flaw that starves that valve train of oil and in some cases like mine result in an engine that sounds like a sewing machine and in other instances results in very early engine failure. Do not waste your time and money fixing valve train noises unless your just counting on a temporary fix to pass the truck on to some unsuspecting smuck. If you're fortunate enough to have a low mileage truck that is still quiet get rid of it sooner rather then later.
I for one have a brand new looking truck inside and out that's on it's last legs and costs more to fix than its worth and the repair option is putting back in the same POS engine that needs to be replaced
. Oh and the 4R75W, another Found On Road Dear engineering marvel. I was told that's crapping out too. And yes tranny has always been dealer services as scheduled and engine has always had Motocrap filter and 5 20 synthetic oil.Unfortunately now I need a new truck and a faced with the dilemma of having to choose reliability over styling and finish. That only leaves me with GM or RAM as potential options. I feel very burned by Ford and am afraid that the 5.0 or EB may be equally as unreliable as the 5.4 in the long run. I hope this will spare someone from the crap I'm currently dealing with
09-07-2013, 09:59 PM
#37
Senior Member
Thread Starter
09-09-2013, 11:40 AM
#39
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Well actually that is a very accurate statement for any engine. However, I'm pretty sure what he was trying to articulate is that these engines unlike the previous generation are prone to premature wear & death. Perhaps some trucks were produced with parts from different suppliers thus explaining why some have these issues and others don't. Clearly you got one of the better ones, how many miles and what year? Is your truck quiet, not even the light diesel sound?
09-09-2013, 11:29 PM
#40
Senior Member
My 2005 XLT v8 5.4L went to 165k miles before the timing chain snapped.
It was a real heartbreak, but things like this happen and there's no sense to brood over it forever.
I love the truck and refuse to get another one, so I'm getting the engine rebuilt:
www.tbolt.net
These folks have been around since before my dad was born.
After its finished, I'll have a rebuilt engine with a 3-year 100,000 mile warranty.
Total costs will be around $4000, but its better than getting a new truck for $30,000 or a used one for $15,000 that has a warranty of 3 months.
It was a real heartbreak, but things like this happen and there's no sense to brood over it forever.
I love the truck and refuse to get another one, so I'm getting the engine rebuilt:
www.tbolt.net
These folks have been around since before my dad was born.
After its finished, I'll have a rebuilt engine with a 3-year 100,000 mile warranty.
Total costs will be around $4000, but its better than getting a new truck for $30,000 or a used one for $15,000 that has a warranty of 3 months.