1985 F150 302 EFI got fuel, air, and spark but won't start!
06-19-2011, 12:50 AM
#11
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Ford PIP
Guess I should have Googled the PIP. Why the hell couldn't they just say "crank trigger"? 
BTW, what is the best way to fix the fried fusible-link I found?
BTW, what is the best way to fix the fried fusible-link I found?
Last edited by CRinWP; 06-19-2011 at 12:51 AM. Reason: Cause Ima retard
06-19-2011, 01:13 AM
#12
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Need a new PIP?
So, unless I'm way off course here, I've researched some more and determined I need a new PIP / Hall Effect sensor / Pick-Up assembly / they couldn't make it simple...
Apparently, mine could be bad because the ICM / TFI / SPOUT will fire the coil with a "push-start" type (gray) TFI, which are the ones installed in the manual transmission F-150s. Apparently the A/Ts come with a "black TFI".
Found the info here:
http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf
http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf
Will try that tomorrow...
Apparently, mine could be bad because the ICM / TFI / SPOUT will fire the coil with a "push-start" type (gray) TFI, which are the ones installed in the manual transmission F-150s. Apparently the A/Ts come with a "black TFI".
Found the info here:
http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf
http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf
Will try that tomorrow...
06-19-2011, 02:56 AM
#13
Senior Member
Today's diagnostics:
-TFI was tested by NAPA, it passed. Re-installed it with the requisite silicon grease.
-Baseline TDC / timing check was almost dead-on correct.
-Tested all 8 spark-plugs for spark; all had spark at the plug.
-All 8 spark-plugs were wet with fuel from the cranking.
-Located and tested the SPOUT circuit. It passed with good signal/current.
-Pulled the codes from the new ECM and got Code-18 from the memory string. The ubiquitous "IDM circuit failure or SPOUT circuit grounded" code. Traced down the IDM wiring and did finally find a fried fusible-link. It was the big brown IDM circuit fusible-link hiding behind the coil. I jumped across across it and the Code-18 disappeared. I tried starting it (key to full off position and back through starting) to try to force new codes to show up but NONE but Code-11 (pass)!
-I jerked out the air-box and pulled the sheath off of the loom. I did not find any obvious breaks or shorts. All the way to the firewall.
AND, it still doesn't start.
WHAT I DID FIND:
-No PIP signal. I tested the PIP signal wire (dark-blue) into the TFI and it had NO SIGNAL whatsoever. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
Because...
-Tested all 8 fuel injectors and all 8 had strong constant current. Shouldn't their current pulse? They had current through both the red and gray wires, like they were in a constant-open state. Or do I have that backward and they actuate on current-off?
My understanding is that if there is current to the injectors, then the PIP is good ???? That makes no freaking sense... The FIs are getting current yet I cannot get PIP signal, wha tthe heck am I missing here?
SUMMARY:
This thing is in-time (no misaligned distributor), it's getting fuel (wet plugs), it's getting air (IAC actuates), and it's getting spark at the plugs...
W-T-
!!!
-TFI was tested by NAPA, it passed. Re-installed it with the requisite silicon grease.
-Baseline TDC / timing check was almost dead-on correct.
-Tested all 8 spark-plugs for spark; all had spark at the plug.
-All 8 spark-plugs were wet with fuel from the cranking.
-Located and tested the SPOUT circuit. It passed with good signal/current.
-Pulled the codes from the new ECM and got Code-18 from the memory string. The ubiquitous "IDM circuit failure or SPOUT circuit grounded" code. Traced down the IDM wiring and did finally find a fried fusible-link. It was the big brown IDM circuit fusible-link hiding behind the coil. I jumped across across it and the Code-18 disappeared. I tried starting it (key to full off position and back through starting) to try to force new codes to show up but NONE but Code-11 (pass)!
-I jerked out the air-box and pulled the sheath off of the loom. I did not find any obvious breaks or shorts. All the way to the firewall.
AND, it still doesn't start.
WHAT I DID FIND:
-No PIP signal. I tested the PIP signal wire (dark-blue) into the TFI and it had NO SIGNAL whatsoever. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
Because...
-Tested all 8 fuel injectors and all 8 had strong constant current. Shouldn't their current pulse? They had current through both the red and gray wires, like they were in a constant-open state. Or do I have that backward and they actuate on current-off?
My understanding is that if there is current to the injectors, then the PIP is good ???? That makes no freaking sense... The FIs are getting current yet I cannot get PIP signal, wha tthe heck am I missing here?
SUMMARY:
This thing is in-time (no misaligned distributor), it's getting fuel (wet plugs), it's getting air (IAC actuates), and it's getting spark at the plugs...
W-T-
!!!On the injectors the red wires are all +12V all the time.
The injectors fire when the ECU grounds out the other side of the injectors. So if you measure at the other wires (Tan color) with the red meter lead on a (Tan) injector wire and the black meter lead on a good ground then that wire should pulse. Your meter should read +12V when the injector is OFF and 0V when energized (Grounded by the ECU). So if you read a constant +12 Volts on the tan injector wires then they are not firing.
Here is the TFI ignition diagram.
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...50ignition.jpg
Here is the ECU diagram note the resistor on bottom right and other wires PIP SPOUT etc going to the ignition shown in the 1st diagram above.
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t.../8650EECp1.jpg
Here is more of the ECU showing the injector wiring.
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t.../8650EECp2.jpg
And the rest of the ECU showing test connector.
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t.../8650EECp3.jpg
Note: Having voltage present does not necessarily mean there is current flowing.
Last edited by klricks; 06-19-2011 at 11:08 AM.
06-19-2011, 02:59 AM
#14
Senior Member
So, unless I'm way off course here, I've researched some more and determined I need a new PIP / Hall Effect sensor / Pick-Up assembly / they couldn't make it simple...
Apparently, mine could be bad because the ICM / TFI / SPOUT will fire the coil with a "push-start" type (gray) TFI, which are the ones installed in the manual transmission F-150s. Apparently the A/Ts come with a "black TFI".
Found the info here:
http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf
http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf
Will try that tomorrow...
Apparently, mine could be bad because the ICM / TFI / SPOUT will fire the coil with a "push-start" type (gray) TFI, which are the ones installed in the manual transmission F-150s. Apparently the A/Ts come with a "black TFI".
Found the info here:
http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf
http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf
Will try that tomorrow...
06-19-2011, 12:52 PM
#15
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From everything I have been reading, that is the "dark green with yellow stripe" wire for the IDM which throws the Code-18 "IDM circuit failure or SPOUT circuit grounded".
The wire is actually dark-green with a yellow-poka-dot stripe. I could not find a dark-green wire with a solid linear yellow stripe so, hopefully this is it.
It connects to the coil plug as well as the ICM/TFI. Then it runs back to the ECU. The ECU was throwing Code-18 at me until I bypassed this big brown thing; that I thought was an FL.
Unfortunately for me, you're correct. It is a Resistor. I did a resistance test at both 200k and 2000k and got 21.7 and 21 ohms respectively.
But when I jumped across it, the Code-18 went away and only the Code-11 (pass) came up.
I am totally lost here. Could a bad crankshaft sensor and Hall Effect Pick-Up in the distributor cause this thing not to start but have fuel, air, and spark?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I should restate the symptoms before it croaked: My buddy said he could get it started but it would not idle. He had to give it a little throttle. However, after about 10 minutes, it would die and not restart for several hours. So, I thought TPS and then ECU. The resistance test on the TPS shows it to be good. Then I thought IAC. Bought a new one; installed it; no start. Then I thought fuel pumps. I disconnected the fuel line on the return side of the rail and got fuel shooting out from both tanks so, even the transfer valve works. Like I said yesterday, I did a TDC check and all was correct. I tested the plugs for spark and got spark in all 8.
For Pete's sake, this damn thing is an '85 Ford, I just rebuilt my '03 VW DIESEL engine and it works great! I feel like a total idiot here.
The wire is actually dark-green with a yellow-poka-dot stripe. I could not find a dark-green wire with a solid linear yellow stripe so, hopefully this is it.
It connects to the coil plug as well as the ICM/TFI. Then it runs back to the ECU. The ECU was throwing Code-18 at me until I bypassed this big brown thing; that I thought was an FL.
Unfortunately for me, you're correct. It is a Resistor. I did a resistance test at both 200k and 2000k and got 21.7 and 21 ohms respectively.
But when I jumped across it, the Code-18 went away and only the Code-11 (pass) came up.
I am totally lost here. Could a bad crankshaft sensor and Hall Effect Pick-Up in the distributor cause this thing not to start but have fuel, air, and spark?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I should restate the symptoms before it croaked: My buddy said he could get it started but it would not idle. He had to give it a little throttle. However, after about 10 minutes, it would die and not restart for several hours. So, I thought TPS and then ECU. The resistance test on the TPS shows it to be good. Then I thought IAC. Bought a new one; installed it; no start. Then I thought fuel pumps. I disconnected the fuel line on the return side of the rail and got fuel shooting out from both tanks so, even the transfer valve works. Like I said yesterday, I did a TDC check and all was correct. I tested the plugs for spark and got spark in all 8.
For Pete's sake, this damn thing is an '85 Ford, I just rebuilt my '03 VW DIESEL engine and it works great! I feel like a total idiot here.
04-26-2014, 04:40 AM
#16
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Did you ever get the thing running right because im trying to figure this out myself. im having the same problem with "My buddy said he could get it started but it would not idle. He had to give it a little throttle. However, after about 10 minutes, it would die and not restart for several hours. "
04-26-2014, 04:42 AM
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Maybe I should restate the symptoms before it croaked[/U]: My buddy said he could get it started but it would not idle. He had to give it a little throttle. However, after about 10 minutes, it would die and not restart for several hours. So, I thought TPS and then ECU. The resistance test on the TPS shows it to be good. Then I thought IAC. Bought a new one; installed it; no start. Then I thought fuel pumps. I disconnected the fuel line on the return side of the rail and got fuel shooting out from both tanks so, even the transfer valve works. Like I said yesterday, I did a TDC check and all was correct. I tested the plugs for spark and got spark in all 8.
For Pete's sake, this damn thing is an '85 Ford, I just rebuilt my '03 VW DIESEL engine and it works great! I feel like a total idiot here.
For Pete's sake, this damn thing is an '85 Ford, I just rebuilt my '03 VW DIESEL engine and it works great! I feel like a total idiot here.
03-27-2015, 06:15 PM
#19
Junior Member
Did you ever get the thing running right because im trying to figure this out myself. im having the same problem with "My buddy said he could get it started but it would not idle. He had to give it a little throttle. However, after about 10 minutes, it would die and not restart for several hours. "
03-27-2015, 11:43 PM
#20
New guy here and thought i`d throw my 2 cents in there. if you have spark at the plugs and timing is good, i would try the quick start trick like the other 2 guys suggested . could it be bad gas ? or low fuel pressure ? for the cost of a can of quick start it would be worth a shot .