2018 F-150 3.5 EB- Tune or regear
05-22-2019, 11:50 AM
#21
Senior Member
I would back your bet! A tuned 3.5EB makes gobs of torque.
Last edited by sholxgt; 05-22-2019 at 11:54 AM.
05-22-2019, 11:53 AM
#22
Senior Member
Gearing is about mechanical advantage. Just changing the tune increases load factors on the trans by using more engine force vs correcting the mechanical advantage imbalance.
Again - gears are the size of the lever, tune is size of the guy using the lever.
If 4.10s weren't needed for 35s with the 10sp, the Raptor wouldn't come with them.
I have a dinosaur 6.2 with 4.88s and 37s. Put 37s on a 3.31 eco, tune it and I'll pass you like you are tired to a stump.
Again - gears are the size of the lever, tune is size of the guy using the lever.
If 4.10s weren't needed for 35s with the 10sp, the Raptor wouldn't come with them.
I have a dinosaur 6.2 with 4.88s and 37s. Put 37s on a 3.31 eco, tune it and I'll pass you like you are tired to a stump.
We are talking about a 34" tall tire. That's roughly 2-3" taller than stock. No one would have hesitated to put a 34" tire on a 2016 F150 with factory 3.73 gears. But, that truck had the 6-speed auto. For comparison, here's how the math works on a 3.31 gear with 10 speed auto vs a 3.73 with the 6 speed...
4.17x3.73=15.55
4.69x3.31=15.52
Effectively the same.
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blkZ28spt (08-29-2019)
05-22-2019, 11:56 AM
#23
Gearing is about mechanical advantage. Just changing the tune increases load factors on the trans by using more engine force vs correcting the mechanical advantage imbalance.
Again - gears are the size of the lever, tune is size of the guy using the lever.
If 4.10s weren't needed for 35s with the 10sp, the Raptor wouldn't come with them.
I have a dinosaur 6.2 with 4.88s and 37s. Put 37s on a 3.31 eco, tune it and I'll pass you like you are tired to a stump.
Again - gears are the size of the lever, tune is size of the guy using the lever.
If 4.10s weren't needed for 35s with the 10sp, the Raptor wouldn't come with them.
I have a dinosaur 6.2 with 4.88s and 37s. Put 37s on a 3.31 eco, tune it and I'll pass you like you are tired to a stump.
Also your analogy is flawed, I’d guess the tuned 3.5 EB would leave you in the dust. Tuners increase power across the entire powerband, gears do not. 0-60 you might win, probably not a quarter mile.
Last edited by redranger04g; 05-22-2019 at 01:48 PM.
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blkZ28spt (08-29-2019)
05-22-2019, 12:12 PM
#24
Who's talking about 4.88 gears or 37" tires other than you?
We are talking about a 34" tall tire. That's roughly 2-3" taller than stock. No one would have hesitated to put a 34" tire on a 2016 F150 with factory 3.73 gears. But, that truck had the 6-speed auto. For comparison, here's how the math works on a 3.31 gear with 10 speed auto vs a 3.73 with the 6 speed...
4.17x3.73=15.55
4.69x3.31=15.52
Effectively the same.
We are talking about a 34" tall tire. That's roughly 2-3" taller than stock. No one would have hesitated to put a 34" tire on a 2016 F150 with factory 3.73 gears. But, that truck had the 6-speed auto. For comparison, here's how the math works on a 3.31 gear with 10 speed auto vs a 3.73 with the 6 speed...
4.17x3.73=15.55
4.69x3.31=15.52
Effectively the same.
The tune may help, but even my truck with tune, 3.73's and shorter 6th gear needs to downshift out of 6th sometimes.
Last edited by mass-hole; 05-22-2019 at 12:14 PM.
05-22-2019, 12:15 PM
#25
Senior Member
I have found that mine is perfectly happy in 10th at around 60 and higher. Lower and I usually just lock 8 as the highest option.
That being said, I have 3.55's. I'm sure you'd need to move that speed up with the 3.31.
05-22-2019, 12:22 PM
#26
Senior Member
Also, I have to say that a lot of people get fixated on the idea that something is wrong if their vehicle doesn't hold top gear at all times. That is just old school thinking.
With the 10 speed, it's constantly shifting regardless of tire size. Mine completely stock with stock tires and stock gearing was moving between 8, 9, and 10 (all of those are overdriven gears) on the highway with either mild speed changes or mild elevation changes. It's made to do that. Always looking for optimal! It's 10 times smoother and faster shifting than the older 6 speeds though so it's fairly seamless. Just a small change on the tach.
Try driving a new CVT if you really want to watch some rpm fluctuations!
With the 10 speed, it's constantly shifting regardless of tire size. Mine completely stock with stock tires and stock gearing was moving between 8, 9, and 10 (all of those are overdriven gears) on the highway with either mild speed changes or mild elevation changes. It's made to do that. Always looking for optimal! It's 10 times smoother and faster shifting than the older 6 speeds though so it's fairly seamless. Just a small change on the tach.
Try driving a new CVT if you really want to watch some rpm fluctuations!
05-22-2019, 12:35 PM
#27
Senior Member
so let met get this straight...
One of the most technologically advanced, mass produced off road vehicle comes with 34.5" tires and 4.10 gears because that's what highly paid engineers said it needed but keyboard warriors say that ratio isn't needed - it also has more hp/tq than the regular ecos but let's ignore the facts to fit our narrative...
800hp/750tq trophy trucks run the EXACT same 4.56/37 and 5.13/49 gearing that us mortals do, but engine torque negates gearing?
you don't use first gear to calculate final ratio - in point of fact, the 10sp final gear is HIGHER than the 6spd. The 10spd makes the turbo engines stay in their effective zone - it does NOT eliminate the need for re-gearing when you go up in tire size.
if appropriate gears multiply torque then not having appropriate gearing detracts or takes away effective torque - ie running 3.31s with 35s. why? mechanical advantage.
tuning only makes it 'feel' like you're compensating for the larger tire/increased rotating mass - that's the point I'm making. you are incurring MORE wear on the engine and trans because you are forcing both to work harder to overcome the mechanical disadvantage you have introduced. The fact that the performance increase will be significant if properly geared is a side benefit.
One of the most technologically advanced, mass produced off road vehicle comes with 34.5" tires and 4.10 gears because that's what highly paid engineers said it needed but keyboard warriors say that ratio isn't needed - it also has more hp/tq than the regular ecos but let's ignore the facts to fit our narrative...
800hp/750tq trophy trucks run the EXACT same 4.56/37 and 5.13/49 gearing that us mortals do, but engine torque negates gearing?
you don't use first gear to calculate final ratio - in point of fact, the 10sp final gear is HIGHER than the 6spd. The 10spd makes the turbo engines stay in their effective zone - it does NOT eliminate the need for re-gearing when you go up in tire size.
if appropriate gears multiply torque then not having appropriate gearing detracts or takes away effective torque - ie running 3.31s with 35s. why? mechanical advantage.
tuning only makes it 'feel' like you're compensating for the larger tire/increased rotating mass - that's the point I'm making. you are incurring MORE wear on the engine and trans because you are forcing both to work harder to overcome the mechanical disadvantage you have introduced. The fact that the performance increase will be significant if properly geared is a side benefit.
05-22-2019, 12:41 PM
#28
Senior Member
so let met get this straight...
One of the most technologically advanced, mass produced off road vehicle comes with 34.5" tires and 4.10 gears because that's what highly paid engineers said it needed but keyboard warriors say that ratio isn't needed - it also has more hp/tq than the regular ecos but let's ignore the facts to fit our narrative...
800hp/750tq trophy trucks run the EXACT same 4.56/37 and 5.13/49 gearing that us mortals do, but engine torque negates gearing?
you don't use first gear to calculate final ratio - in point of fact, the 10sp final gear is HIGHER than the 6spd. The 10spd makes the turbo engines stay in their effective zone - it does NOT eliminate the need for re-gearing when you go up in tire size.
if appropriate gears multiply torque then not having appropriate gearing detracts or takes away effective torque - ie running 3.31s with 35s. why? mechanical advantage.
tuning only makes it 'feel' like you're compensating for the larger tire/increased rotating mass - that's the point I'm making. you are incurring MORE wear on the engine and trans because you are forcing both to work harder to overcome the mechanical disadvantage you have introduced. The fact that the performance increase will be significant if properly geared is a side benefit.
One of the most technologically advanced, mass produced off road vehicle comes with 34.5" tires and 4.10 gears because that's what highly paid engineers said it needed but keyboard warriors say that ratio isn't needed - it also has more hp/tq than the regular ecos but let's ignore the facts to fit our narrative...
800hp/750tq trophy trucks run the EXACT same 4.56/37 and 5.13/49 gearing that us mortals do, but engine torque negates gearing?
you don't use first gear to calculate final ratio - in point of fact, the 10sp final gear is HIGHER than the 6spd. The 10spd makes the turbo engines stay in their effective zone - it does NOT eliminate the need for re-gearing when you go up in tire size.
if appropriate gears multiply torque then not having appropriate gearing detracts or takes away effective torque - ie running 3.31s with 35s. why? mechanical advantage.
tuning only makes it 'feel' like you're compensating for the larger tire/increased rotating mass - that's the point I'm making. you are incurring MORE wear on the engine and trans because you are forcing both to work harder to overcome the mechanical disadvantage you have introduced. The fact that the performance increase will be significant if properly geared is a side benefit.
I wasn't calculating final drive ratio, I was calculating first gear effective ratio since we were discussing the ability to accelerate.
Proper gearing definitely helps and I do think that 3.73's would probably help my truck. That being said, I have countless passes down a dragstrip testing different gear ratios over the past 37 years and can tell you that gearing makes very little change to ET and too steep of a gear takes away from MPH. Helps the 60', but takes away MPH.
Have you driven an F150 with the 10speed and EB? The darn thing is just clicking through gears like crazy! 4.88's would be miserable!
05-22-2019, 12:46 PM
#29
Senior Member
It has the extreme gear ratio for offroad ability, not onroad. Think low speed needs.
I wasn't calculating final drive ratio, I was calculating first gear effective ratio since we were discussing the ability to accelerate.
Proper gearing definitely helps and I do think that 3.73's would probably help my truck. That being said, I have countless passes down a dragstrip testing different gear ratios over the past 37 years and can tell you that gearing makes very little change to ET and too steep of a gear takes away from MPH. Helps the 60', but takes away MPH.
Have you driven an F150 with the 10speed and EB? The darn thing is just clicking through gears like crazy! 4.88's would be miserable!
I wasn't calculating final drive ratio, I was calculating first gear effective ratio since we were discussing the ability to accelerate.
Proper gearing definitely helps and I do think that 3.73's would probably help my truck. That being said, I have countless passes down a dragstrip testing different gear ratios over the past 37 years and can tell you that gearing makes very little change to ET and too steep of a gear takes away from MPH. Helps the 60', but takes away MPH.
Have you driven an F150 with the 10speed and EB? The darn thing is just clicking through gears like crazy! 4.88's would be miserable!
05-22-2019, 12:56 PM
#30
Senior Member
It's all about the big picture. The tire height, rear gear, AND transmission ratios all combine to give you the effective ratio. The 10-speed makes a bigger difference than you realize.
Lets say that right now you are making those turns in 2nd gear (2.34x4.88=11.42) that would be like the 10 speed with almost only a 3.73 (2.98x3.73=11.11).
The 10-speed doesn't reach 1:1 until 7th gear. That's a lot of opportunity for gear multiplication on the way up.