Rough Idle, stalling loss of power
09-01-2012, 09:21 PM
#1
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Rough Idle, stalling loss of power
SO I'm getting the infamous P0011/P0022 codes along with a P0340 and P0345. I've read a lot here and elsewhere about the potential issues I may be having.
Originally i turn on the truck one day and it idles supremely rough. It would die and have issue if I restarted
Replaced:
Cam position sensors a few months ago and this improved the issue significantly but I still felt like I lacked power and if I jam on the gas (highway driving) I could generate a buck and rough idle to stall when I slowed down and stopped.
Oddly I can shut the truck off and back on and most times the rough idle stops and the truck drives fine provided I don't jam around trying to pass everyone on the freeway. Some mornings it starts up fine and others it starts to rough idle (again can turn off and back on to remedy).
Today I replaced both VCT solenoids and the mass air flow sensor. Cleared codes and ended up back to the codes above after a cruise and a rough idle to stall after a block (again truck off and truck on gets me going again).
I read I may still have a cam phaser issue, a cat issue, vacuum line issue (???), oil pressure issue or something related to the battery or battery connections.....and on and on
Please please offer any suggestions on where to go next. Thinking elctrical somehow if the off and on thing fixes it temporarily.
Sorry so long....out of my mind now. Maybe the shop is next but tight on cash.
Thanks!
Originally i turn on the truck one day and it idles supremely rough. It would die and have issue if I restarted
Replaced:
Cam position sensors a few months ago and this improved the issue significantly but I still felt like I lacked power and if I jam on the gas (highway driving) I could generate a buck and rough idle to stall when I slowed down and stopped.
Oddly I can shut the truck off and back on and most times the rough idle stops and the truck drives fine provided I don't jam around trying to pass everyone on the freeway. Some mornings it starts up fine and others it starts to rough idle (again can turn off and back on to remedy).
Today I replaced both VCT solenoids and the mass air flow sensor. Cleared codes and ended up back to the codes above after a cruise and a rough idle to stall after a block (again truck off and truck on gets me going again).
I read I may still have a cam phaser issue, a cat issue, vacuum line issue (???), oil pressure issue or something related to the battery or battery connections.....and on and on
Please please offer any suggestions on where to go next. Thinking elctrical somehow if the off and on thing fixes it temporarily.
Sorry so long....out of my mind now. Maybe the shop is next but tight on cash.
Thanks!
09-01-2012, 11:43 PM
#2
i dont know what vehicle you have that would help. if the timing chain has jumped you can have all sorts of problems. if the engine is not in correct time nothing will work at the proper spec. common with higher mileage 4.6
09-05-2012, 05:20 PM
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Re: Rough Idle, stalling loss of power
Brain fart I posted this question at the end of a day under the hood...
My truck is 2004 F150 XLT 5.4 (currently about 90k miles)
I wondered about timing issues (while thinking over everything I mentioned above) but why would the problem go away when the truck is turned off and back on? I thought timing was mechanical and if off it had to be physcially reset?
I'd call myself and above avergae weekend warrior mechanic, no expert but not slow either so bring any ideas you got I can work through them!
Thanls for any additional help or feedback.
My truck is 2004 F150 XLT 5.4 (currently about 90k miles)
I wondered about timing issues (while thinking over everything I mentioned above) but why would the problem go away when the truck is turned off and back on? I thought timing was mechanical and if off it had to be physcially reset?
I'd call myself and above avergae weekend warrior mechanic, no expert but not slow either so bring any ideas you got I can work through them!
Thanls for any additional help or feedback.
Last edited by AzSunnyD; 09-05-2012 at 05:21 PM. Reason: "gramma"
09-05-2012, 08:52 PM
#4
maybe check oil pressure? that is an inexpensive test and the least intrusive i can think of at this point. i identifixed your codes and people have been have problems with the cam phasers. the internal oil passages leading to your cam phaser .
. Cam codes such as these, along with misfire codes on one bank, usually suggest either the timing chain is off by one or more teeth, or that bank has incorrect oil flow for the variable cam timing system. In the case of an engine rattle as well, it is likely either the cam phaser is damaged, or there is an oil flow problem to the phaser and tensioner.
2. Before beginning variable cam timing tests, it is important to warn your customer that variable cam timing concerns on this engine can be a very expensive repair. In many cases, the internal passages feeding the phaser or the tensioner will be plugged with debris, getting this debris out can be extremely difficult and sometimes results in the need for a new engine. Informing the customer of this possibility before extensive diagnosis and repair attempts is recommended.
3. To start diagnosis, run engine at hot idle, when the engine is running poorly, backprobe a ground wire into the variable camshaft solenoids (located at the top of each valve cover) at the following wires, one at a time. Only tap the ground to the wire briefly.
a. Driver's side, Violet and Light Blue wire.
b. Passenger side, Dark Green and Orange wire.
4. If tapping a ground to either solenoid resolves the concern, the solenoid was stuck open either because of debris stuck in the solenoid or because the solenoid itself was stuck.
5. If the concern is still present, unplug both solenoid connectors, if the engine now runs smoothly, suspect circuit faults between the solenoids and the PCM. Note, these solenoids should only be actuated off idle, similar to an EGR valve.
6. If the concern is still present with the solenoids unplugged, install a lab scope with at least two channels on the cam shaft position sensors (located on the timing cover, one on each side).Install the positive leads at the following wires, install the negative lead to ground.
a. Driver's side, Dark Green wire.
b. Passenger side, Orange wire.
7. Now start the engine, the wave forms should be in exact sync with each other, if one wave form is even slightly out of sync with the other, either the chain has jumped, the sensor is faulty, or there is a concern with the phaser assembly. A code P0012 suggests a problem on the passenger side bank, P0022 suggests the problem is on the driver side bank.
8. To rule out a sensor problem, simply swap the sensors bank to bank, if the concern follows the sensor, replace the affected sensor.
9. If the sensor is ok, you will now have to begin determining if this is a phaser concern or a timing chain problem.
10. A phaser that is over-retarded at idle can either be a hydraulic or a mechanical failure. First, swap the solenoids bank to bank, if the concern follows the solenoid, then replace the affected solenoid.
11. If the fault is still present on the same bank, then the timing cover should be removed at this point for removal and inspection of the variable cam timing components.
12. First remove the phaser and inspect for broken trigger, bent trigger, damaged return spring. Replace as necessary. While phaser is removed, inspect the phaser bolt orifice for blockage, clean and replace as necessary.
13. Next remove the solenoid valve body, inspect all orifices for blockage, clean and replace as necessary.
14. If all orifices are ok, reassemble, verify proper chain timing. Restart the engine, if the concern is still present, suspect plugged orifices as discussed in step 2.
Tech Tips:
. It is always a good idea to check base oil pressure as well, specifications are 25 PSI or more at idle, 40 PSI or more at 2000 RPM
. Cam codes such as these, along with misfire codes on one bank, usually suggest either the timing chain is off by one or more teeth, or that bank has incorrect oil flow for the variable cam timing system. In the case of an engine rattle as well, it is likely either the cam phaser is damaged, or there is an oil flow problem to the phaser and tensioner.
2. Before beginning variable cam timing tests, it is important to warn your customer that variable cam timing concerns on this engine can be a very expensive repair. In many cases, the internal passages feeding the phaser or the tensioner will be plugged with debris, getting this debris out can be extremely difficult and sometimes results in the need for a new engine. Informing the customer of this possibility before extensive diagnosis and repair attempts is recommended.
3. To start diagnosis, run engine at hot idle, when the engine is running poorly, backprobe a ground wire into the variable camshaft solenoids (located at the top of each valve cover) at the following wires, one at a time. Only tap the ground to the wire briefly.
a. Driver's side, Violet and Light Blue wire.
b. Passenger side, Dark Green and Orange wire.
4. If tapping a ground to either solenoid resolves the concern, the solenoid was stuck open either because of debris stuck in the solenoid or because the solenoid itself was stuck.
5. If the concern is still present, unplug both solenoid connectors, if the engine now runs smoothly, suspect circuit faults between the solenoids and the PCM. Note, these solenoids should only be actuated off idle, similar to an EGR valve.
6. If the concern is still present with the solenoids unplugged, install a lab scope with at least two channels on the cam shaft position sensors (located on the timing cover, one on each side).Install the positive leads at the following wires, install the negative lead to ground.
a. Driver's side, Dark Green wire.
b. Passenger side, Orange wire.
7. Now start the engine, the wave forms should be in exact sync with each other, if one wave form is even slightly out of sync with the other, either the chain has jumped, the sensor is faulty, or there is a concern with the phaser assembly. A code P0012 suggests a problem on the passenger side bank, P0022 suggests the problem is on the driver side bank.
8. To rule out a sensor problem, simply swap the sensors bank to bank, if the concern follows the sensor, replace the affected sensor.
9. If the sensor is ok, you will now have to begin determining if this is a phaser concern or a timing chain problem.
10. A phaser that is over-retarded at idle can either be a hydraulic or a mechanical failure. First, swap the solenoids bank to bank, if the concern follows the solenoid, then replace the affected solenoid.
11. If the fault is still present on the same bank, then the timing cover should be removed at this point for removal and inspection of the variable cam timing components.
12. First remove the phaser and inspect for broken trigger, bent trigger, damaged return spring. Replace as necessary. While phaser is removed, inspect the phaser bolt orifice for blockage, clean and replace as necessary.
13. Next remove the solenoid valve body, inspect all orifices for blockage, clean and replace as necessary.
14. If all orifices are ok, reassemble, verify proper chain timing. Restart the engine, if the concern is still present, suspect plugged orifices as discussed in step 2.
Tech Tips:
. It is always a good idea to check base oil pressure as well, specifications are 25 PSI or more at idle, 40 PSI or more at 2000 RPM
09-14-2012, 12:19 PM
#5
if you are thinking you are having a cat issue. you can get out of the vehicle when it is running bad as use a temperature gun and measure temp right before and after the cat. if the temp is a whole lot higher in front of it may be getting clogged up . u think this would throw a cat code. u get into the phasers yet? it sounds bad but if you are just replacing parts it might be worth a diag fee at the dealership.
04-21-2017, 09:47 AM
#6
Greenhorn
Hey guys, my truck just threw the P0012 code this morning too. I've had rough idle for a long time now. I just put new plugs and coil boots/springs in last week, had the oil changed with Motorcraft 5w-20 with Motorcraft oil filter, and added 7 oz of Seafoam to the oil to help clean out any sludge that's there. After all this, I noticed it sounds like that diesel tick noise is louder at idle than before I did all this. And, now this morning the check engine light came on and threw that code. I've read the comments about someone unplugging the passenger VCT solenoid and his truck ran better. So, if that works (until you can change the solenoid), how long can you run it like that with one side giving constant oil to the phasers, but the other side not? I'm supposed to be leaving today after work to take my family camping about an hour away pulling a travel trailer. Is it safe to still do that? I don't have time to change the solenoid or take it to someone to change before we're supposed to leave, and I don't have any other truck to borrow.
