Purge Solenoid Vibration
08-21-2018, 09:12 PM
#11
hi all, i tried to take my windstar to the big ford dealer here glendale, az, and they said they cannot work on my windstar. it is too old... how do i get the PCM reflashed? i built a smoke generator and i do not have any leaks from the engine - i still have one from the vapor canister system but i installed a vacuum restrictor (orifice) in line to minimize the vacuum leak... i have replaced and checked and rechecked everything but my fuel trims run high and turn the CEL on... the car runs fine... i think the really bad gas mileage i was getting was from the gas evaporating out of the fuel tank. the van runs well but the check engine light comes on... not good since emissions will be coming up soon... running too lean - it will pass emissions but not if the CEL is on... the purge valve is quiet now since i installed the vacuum restrictor... still not fixed right... i think it is a computer thing... any help would be appreciated. thanks, bob 
09-08-2018, 11:27 PM
#12
i am back, i know this is not a windstar site, but i got one with low miles and i can usually fix anything... ford says the aluminum intake vacuum leak is not repairable... i repair it. that little spring loaded plunger is why ford says is was not repairable.. i used my booger picker (sharp pointy hose removal tool) and held the plunger up when i reinstalled the butterfly valve shaft and with a new oring, that vacuum leak is now fixed. all new gaskets and i still have positive fuel trims = vacuum leaks... i put a vacuum flow restrictor in the purge valve line and in the pvc valve line. i got it good enough to keep the CEL from coming on put somethings still wrong... when the car is off and i pull the brake booster vacuum line out i here the vacuum break so i think the brake booster is fine. idk what else i can do? there's a small vacuum line to the purge valve, to the erg valve and egr solenoid valve, the fuel pressure regulator... i cannot find the vacuum leak!!! any help would be greatly appreciated. later, bob
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09-11-2018, 09:56 AM
#13
LightningRod
Hey Bob - I know this is a 'resurrected' thread, somewhat off topic and the Windstar bit -.
But its so seldom that I know anything about a subject that I can help, I had to reply.
Your comment regarding fuel trims suggests you must have a live data scanner. You can very quickly find (even) a very small vacuum leak with it.
Take a propane torch (unlit of course), and while monitoring STFT with engine idling, blow propane all around EVERYTHING. Fuel trims will go very negative if you get near a vacuum leak. You can verify ths by passing the torch in front of the intake. Check all crankcase gaskets also (pan / valve covers, timing cover). Later models use sealed crankcase with negative pressure through the PVC. Try removing the oil filler cap and blow propane over it ---- watch fue trims go negative.
Good luck.
But its so seldom that I know anything about a subject that I can help, I had to reply.
Your comment regarding fuel trims suggests you must have a live data scanner. You can very quickly find (even) a very small vacuum leak with it.
Take a propane torch (unlit of course), and while monitoring STFT with engine idling, blow propane all around EVERYTHING. Fuel trims will go very negative if you get near a vacuum leak. You can verify ths by passing the torch in front of the intake. Check all crankcase gaskets also (pan / valve covers, timing cover). Later models use sealed crankcase with negative pressure through the PVC. Try removing the oil filler cap and blow propane over it ---- watch fue trims go negative.
Good luck.
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windstar bob (09-11-2018)
09-15-2018, 02:02 AM
#14
well, i did the propane test looking for vacuum leaks and nothing... i even took the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator and stuck the propane into that and i got an 8%+ fuel trim... no where on the top of the engine is there a vacuum leak... i went around the brake booster... behind the engine as best i could... put the propane next to each fuel injector... i am running out of things to check/fix...
09-15-2018, 10:28 AM
#15
LightningRod
@windstar bob,
Sorry. +8 is too much (if you're talking about STFT). Declining by 8 or going 8% negative when propane is ingested would be expected. But STFT should bobble above / below zero. Just so we're on the same page -- LTFT is just an indicator WHERE STFT has been trending.
I have no particular knowledge about the Windstar - But OBDII is the same across the board. Positive fuel trims indicate the PCM is having to 'lengthen' injector pulse width in order to establish the optimum voltage reading (.45 v) from the O2 Sensors - as the PCM normally varies injector pulse width(s) up / down to find that perfect point where unburned oxygen _JUST_ disappears (ie: perfect fuel/air ratio into combustion). That latter statement (_into_ combustion) is the one that leads everyone to suspect a vacuum leak BEFORE the combustion process. HOWEVER, doesn't have to be that.
I have high confidence in the propane test. So we have to look to other things that can upset that tedious balance. Can't apply F150 experience, but conceptionally ....
1.) Vehicles that have vacuum actuated mechanisms (in dash A/C air box Diverter, IWE actuator, EGR valve actuator, DPFE sensor, etc). Good test is monitor live STFT fuel trims while 'pinching' off vacuum source lines momentarily with vice grips.
2.) O2 sensors get 'lazy' with age / mileage and calibration does tend to drift. Voltage swing response to changes slows down. You can monitor O2 sensor voltage on a graphing scanner, but basically there is little way to test or this. They are so critical to the process, I just replace mine preventatively every 100,000 miles or so.
3.) An exhaust leak ahead of the upstream O2 sensors CAN allow raw oxygen to get into the exhaust stream and cause identical symptoms as a vacuum leak (+ fuel trims). (Generally this exhibits a lesser effect at lower RPMS than midrange - when EGR is being commanded.) If you can monitor live data while driving, a good test for this is watch fuel trims (or O2 sensor graph at light cruise / or VERY light decel [just before ECU does decel fuel shutoff]).
4.) EGR Tubes (if so equipped) and the DPFE sensor are possible (likely on some vehicles) difficult to get to sources of this problem.
5.) One or more injectors under delivering / partially clogged or dirty nozzles will result in positive fuel trims (on that bank if multi-bank), causing the remaining cylinders to run very rich, sometimes to the point of fouling sparkplugs. Difficult to test - Only way is inspection of spark plugs for 'white' residue on lean plugs, black carbon deposits on tips of plugs running rich.
6.) Fuel injectors are designed to deliver a certain flow (GPH) with a 'specific' calibrated pressure across the nozzle. IF FUEL PRESSURE is LOW, the PCM will lengthen pulse width in an effort to compensate for shortage in injector delivery. /// BUT, you reported poor gas mileage, so I do not suspect this as it would NOT result in increased fuel delivery above the NORMAL ///.
7.) These factors are effected by calculations In the ECU using Mass Air Flow (MAF or MAP), Baro() pressure, and Intake Air Temp (IAT). Another rather difficult thing to check if out of calibration. These can be read via OBDII, but my F150 OBDII documentation might be of little assistance. Just be aware of these sensors. (On mine, a couple are combined in the MAF sensor).
These are in no particular order, but Hope this helps.
Sorry. +8 is too much (if you're talking about STFT). Declining by 8 or going 8% negative when propane is ingested would be expected. But STFT should bobble above / below zero. Just so we're on the same page -- LTFT is just an indicator WHERE STFT has been trending.
I have no particular knowledge about the Windstar - But OBDII is the same across the board. Positive fuel trims indicate the PCM is having to 'lengthen' injector pulse width in order to establish the optimum voltage reading (.45 v) from the O2 Sensors - as the PCM normally varies injector pulse width(s) up / down to find that perfect point where unburned oxygen _JUST_ disappears (ie: perfect fuel/air ratio into combustion). That latter statement (_into_ combustion) is the one that leads everyone to suspect a vacuum leak BEFORE the combustion process. HOWEVER, doesn't have to be that.
I have high confidence in the propane test. So we have to look to other things that can upset that tedious balance. Can't apply F150 experience, but conceptionally ....
1.) Vehicles that have vacuum actuated mechanisms (in dash A/C air box Diverter, IWE actuator, EGR valve actuator, DPFE sensor, etc). Good test is monitor live STFT fuel trims while 'pinching' off vacuum source lines momentarily with vice grips.
2.) O2 sensors get 'lazy' with age / mileage and calibration does tend to drift. Voltage swing response to changes slows down. You can monitor O2 sensor voltage on a graphing scanner, but basically there is little way to test or this. They are so critical to the process, I just replace mine preventatively every 100,000 miles or so.
3.) An exhaust leak ahead of the upstream O2 sensors CAN allow raw oxygen to get into the exhaust stream and cause identical symptoms as a vacuum leak (+ fuel trims). (Generally this exhibits a lesser effect at lower RPMS than midrange - when EGR is being commanded.) If you can monitor live data while driving, a good test for this is watch fuel trims (or O2 sensor graph at light cruise / or VERY light decel [just before ECU does decel fuel shutoff]).
4.) EGR Tubes (if so equipped) and the DPFE sensor are possible (likely on some vehicles) difficult to get to sources of this problem.
5.) One or more injectors under delivering / partially clogged or dirty nozzles will result in positive fuel trims (on that bank if multi-bank), causing the remaining cylinders to run very rich, sometimes to the point of fouling sparkplugs. Difficult to test - Only way is inspection of spark plugs for 'white' residue on lean plugs, black carbon deposits on tips of plugs running rich.
6.) Fuel injectors are designed to deliver a certain flow (GPH) with a 'specific' calibrated pressure across the nozzle. IF FUEL PRESSURE is LOW, the PCM will lengthen pulse width in an effort to compensate for shortage in injector delivery. /// BUT, you reported poor gas mileage, so I do not suspect this as it would NOT result in increased fuel delivery above the NORMAL ///.
7.) These factors are effected by calculations In the ECU using Mass Air Flow (MAF or MAP), Baro() pressure, and Intake Air Temp (IAT). Another rather difficult thing to check if out of calibration. These can be read via OBDII, but my F150 OBDII documentation might be of little assistance. Just be aware of these sensors. (On mine, a couple are combined in the MAF sensor).
These are in no particular order, but Hope this helps.
Last edited by F150Torqued; 09-15-2018 at 10:37 AM. Reason: Afterthought (Item 7)
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windstar bob (09-15-2018)
09-15-2018, 02:36 PM
#16
i have replaced everything... the o2 sensors, the dpfe sensors, the purge valve (made noise after changing) the fuel tank pressure sensor., MAF sensor, PVC valve, clam shell gaskets, intake bolt grommets, the aluminum intake gaskets and put new o-rings on the butter fly valve shafts (ford says they are not repairable) ... i put flow restrictors in the pvc line and the big purge vacuum line and i have stopped the CEL from coming one but the LTFTs fuel trims are 20% both banks... short terms bounce around normally... i have plugged off each vacuum source from the motor (two in front and three in back) and no changes in STFTs. i guilt a smoke generator and smoked the intake for leaks and did the propane test last night and nothing... i really think the computer needs reflash but the ford dealer won't touch it because it's a ford 
it only has 85k miles on it. a/c blows ice cold. leather interior... i am just going to drive it and hope it passes emissions he way it is... the evap system does not finish it's self test ever now since i put the flow restrictor in the big purge valve line but it runs fine and i do not smell gas like before. i drove 500 miles in the rain and that's what started all this - the smell of raw gas inside the car.... at least i got that fixed... the car runs fine excet for the poor gas mileage... was 24 mpg on trips now 14 to 16 mpg. equal to my previous 1994 4x4 astro van... i am done for now unless you see something i missed... later, bob
it only has 85k miles on it. a/c blows ice cold. leather interior... i am just going to drive it and hope it passes emissions he way it is... the evap system does not finish it's self test ever now since i put the flow restrictor in the big purge valve line but it runs fine and i do not smell gas like before. i drove 500 miles in the rain and that's what started all this - the smell of raw gas inside the car.... at least i got that fixed... the car runs fine excet for the poor gas mileage... was 24 mpg on trips now 14 to 16 mpg. equal to my previous 1994 4x4 astro van... i am done for now unless you see something i missed... later, bob
12-08-2018, 05:49 AM
#17
i fixed it!!! i ended up replacing the solenoid that controls the vacuum to the EGR valve... my fuel trims are bouncing around zero - short and long term!!!...it use to, once the car warmed up, the fuel trims went so positive that the CEL would come on but changing the solenoid fix it!!! i left the restrictions in the fuel tank vacuum line and the PVC line just because. I did not like the purger valve noise... also, i do not think you need full vacuum to the valve cover - no wonder why they had oil loss issues. or full vacuum to the gas tank. the windstar passed AZ emissions with flying colors!!! i notice the idle is not as smooth as it was but it idles fine and does not die at stoplights like it was doing. i bought it two years ago with 69k miles on it and now have 87k miles on it. i generally keep a car 5 or 6 years before selling it off and getting another used one.
i notice the idle is not as smooth as it was but it idles fine and does not die at stoplights like it was doing. i bought it two years ago with 69k miles on it and now have 87k miles on it. i generally keep a car 5 or 6 years before selling it off and getting another used one.
12-08-2018, 09:16 AM
#18
LightningRod
Congratulations: It is so gratifying when we 'whip' one of those confusing ones down. Especially when all the seasoned mechanics blabber stuff we know can't be correct because we already eliminated that possibility.
I'm not immediately able to rationalize a logical connection between the symptom / fix. Vacuum leak (or even rapid fluctuations) doesn't seem would cause the Purge valve to 'buzz' or 'humm'. But I learned a long time ago that only fools argue with success. Maybe the EGR solenoid had shorted windings and was drawing too much current or shares a common ground or some other electrical effect on the purge valve solenoid. ????? (I know the Purge Valve is modulated open by square wave duty cycle pulses. So poor ground or low voltage could cause a 'vibration' or 'humm'). But who cares now!
And we, here at the forum, also get great satisfaction out of successes - of others too. Thanks for reporting.
I'm not immediately able to rationalize a logical connection between the symptom / fix. Vacuum leak (or even rapid fluctuations) doesn't seem would cause the Purge valve to 'buzz' or 'humm'. But I learned a long time ago that only fools argue with success. Maybe the EGR solenoid had shorted windings and was drawing too much current or shares a common ground or some other electrical effect on the purge valve solenoid. ????? (I know the Purge Valve is modulated open by square wave duty cycle pulses. So poor ground or low voltage could cause a 'vibration' or 'humm'). But who cares now!
And we, here at the forum, also get great satisfaction out of successes - of others too. Thanks for reporting.
12-08-2018, 04:11 PM
#19
my purge valve for the gas tank was quiet until i replaced it... the replacement must have some wiggle room inside that makes it vibrate and get noisy when it comes on. the vacuum leak was actually the egr valve opening a little when the car was at idle (highest vacuum state). i think the solenoid that controls the egr valve was leaking a little letting the vacuum thru when it was not needed and opening the egr valve. mechanically bad, not electrically bad. i took a 9 volt and some test leads and it clicked appropriately. i am happy that i got this one fixed!!! then yesterday it left me at my kids school... would not start... i pushed it home with another car... it was the fuel pump fuse...
Last edited by windstar bob; 12-08-2018 at 05:11 PM.