galaxyrider

I bought a pretty clean 2002 F150 in December 2011 that I knew needed new hubs & pads on the front brakes, but I think I got a good deal ($3400 with 115k).

After learning more about the truck's brakes on this forum (thanks to all) I decided to do the heavy duty "Expedition Upgrade". I chose Centric and bought new Posi-Quiet loaded calipers and also Centric hubs (Power-Slot) that have been Cryo-treated and are supposed to last longer. Having always been an overkill kinda guy, I thought why not go with new parts on all four? So I got the same new calipers, pads and cryo-treated hubs for the rear too.

Hell I even got new parking brake shoes but decided to save those for when I need to do a rear-end axle seal job (which apparently is inevitable on these trucks) and that gets diff. fluid all over the parking brake shoes and ruins 'em. But I digress...

It was a pretty simple remove & replace job with no real difficulties and thankfully no problem whatsoever removing the rear hubs (I have read about some of the nightmares others have had with them).

To finish up I refilled the brake fluid and got my son to pump & hold the brake pedal to bleed the lines. That went as expected and when all four were squirting solid streams I thought I was done and ready to clean up the mess.

Now the problem.: My brake pedal is now very soft and requires a few pumps to get firm enough to stop the truck. I thought "maybe the truck needs to be running to bleed the power brakes" so I bled the system again running. I got some really strong squirts with it running (steady streams with no air) but still no change in the soft brake pedal.

So I need the help and expertise of the Ford Forum. I have good money, time and labor tied up in all new brake parts but there is a sponge where my firm brake pedal used to be and I don't trust these brakes at all as-is. Any insight and help would be greatly appreciated.

joshtowal

Did you bleed all four wheels? I'm not sure what the expedition upgrade is, but if it's just like it sounds and you used parts from an expedition, the calipers could be larger. Check if you have any space between the pads and rotors. If they're just flopping around in there, you'll either need to get calipers that match the rotors, or rotors to match the new calipers. Also, If you replaced the brake lines, make sure you used the same size. If there is more fluid to move, the original master cylinder and brake booster might just be having a hard time moving the extra fluid.

joshtowal

I know you pushed a lot of fluid through them, but an easy way to check for air in the system is to pop the cap off the master cylinder, have a buddy push the brake as far as it will go, then let off of it. If there is any air is the lines, you'll get a geyser effect at the master cylinder (fluid won't go everywhere, but you'll see it).

picaflor

get some speedbleeders... they make bleeding a lot easier...

exgmc

When your partner pumps the brakes and holds down on the peddle, open and close the bleeder BEFORE the peddle hits the floor . Short stroke it.

Do this starting at the closest line to the master cylinder and work your way back. Also verify that your calipers are assembled correctly with all shims, clips and any other parts.

Since you still have to bleed, remove bleeders and put a little anti-sieze on threads. If you need to bleed in future, you won't regret it.

Best of luck

galaxyrider

Thanks for the feedback so far. The Expedition brake upgrade is a bolt on of the heavier duty front rotors & calipers that come on the F250 (7700) and the Expedition. Parts are direct replacements and not much additional cost than original parts. Highly recommended from all I have read about it (if you don't have my problem).

I have bled all four wheels several times. The first bleed on each front got a little air then steady squirt streams. Less air evident on the rear. I even tried a bleed on all four with the engine running to see if the power brakes working made a difference (it did). I got a MUCH stronger squirt from all four but still no evidence of any air. I'm pretty sure there is no additional fluid to move vs. original.

Techniques I have not tried: The master cylinder "cap-off geyser trick" or the "open and close the bleeder while the pedal is on the way down". It might be a little tricky to get he bleed valve opened and closed so quickly because the pedal is so soft it finds the floor pretty rapidly. I was always taught to "pump & hold" during the bleed but I'm willing to try anything. Anyone else hear of these two techniques?

After dicking around with the tiny and hard to turn 3/8 nut I really like the speed-bleeder idea! I may get a set of those if I need to work on this much more to fix it. I also like the anti-seize tip and will consider it for just about every nut & bolt I turn on this truck going forward (where it makes sense).

Any other ideas out there about this problem?

transmaster

Be very, very careful with these speedbleeder valves. They can get you killed. It is no fault of these devices but with your brake fluid. The brake fluid MUST!!!! be completely free of contamination. Any particulates that can get into the brake fluid will block the ball valve open just enough for a slow leak, and with little warning you can suddenly not have much in the way of brakes. I have first hand knowledge of this very thing, I almost got into a serious wreck when I suddenly didn't have my front brakes. I found out one of these bleed points had been blocked open by a tiny piece of sand. This put the fear of God into me and I purchase all of the equipment so I would no longer do a half-*** job of brake work. Other then the proper tools to work on the brake calipers, and drums tbemselfs the biggest thing you can do for yourself is to get one of these.

http://motiveproducts.3dcartstores.c...-Kit_c_17.html

I have one and it has transformed how I service braking systems. This is truely a one man operation. With this pressure bleeder, bleeding brakes is easy, and better yet flushing and changing your brake fluid is a routine operation. Brake fluid should be tested at least once a year for contamination, and replaced about every two to three years depending on what sort of average humidity you have in your area. Simply changing your brake fluid on a regular basis will vastly increase the service life of your lines, master cylinder, calipers, and wheel cylinders. Did I mention this pressure bleeder makes bleeding out a Hydraulic clutch a snap.

ChrisPF818

If you pump the brakes, does the pedal get firm after the pumps or does it always go right to the floor pretty fast still?

papa tiger

Start your next bleeding cycle at the Master cyl to remove all the air from it first. Depending on how the Rig is parked ect the air may be trapped and not gradually working out. Bench bleeding the master cyl first is smart. If the Master Cyl is faulty it will never pump up, simply leak by. The 1 way valve sets psi residual psi, may be faulty/leaking back past into the master cyl reservoir. Dirt and tiny pieces of grit can be ruinous to the system. Slow and steady patience is required or a pressure bleeder. I have a hand held vacuum pump with catch can that works well. Just have to clean it out thoroughly immediately afterwords.

transmaster

Ditto papa tiger; It sounds to me like your master cylinder is leaking. It is difficult to tell when it is because it leaks into the brake booster. You have to take it off and look at the inside. If there is any fluid at all replace it. Incidently the the pressure bleeder I mention above negates the need to bench bleed a master cylinder.