Premium fuel with stock 3.5 eco
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01-25-2016, 01:43 PM
There is just SOO much bad info in this thread. I am a turbo engine tuner from the import world and have tuned over 100 high HP turbo/sc and high compression NA motors. So I figured I would shed some of my knowledge of the subject. I've done tuning for Full-Race in the import world. Not yet for the Ford world but the basics still apply.
Now to explain how forced induction works. All it does is allow more fuel to be burned with less displacement. So with more air requires more fuel. That's the basics. Now with octane rating, lower octane fuels ignite sooner than higher octane fuels. With turbo motors you are basically increasing cylinder pressures which lowers knock threshold significantly due to increased heat. What happens with an improperly tuned motor is as the cylinder is on the compression stroke the fuel will ignite causing the explosion to push against the piston as it's rising causing that "pinging" noise you hear at times. This is EXTREMELY bad for your motor. With forced induction added to this in drastically increases cylinder pressures even more which increases heat even more. Now with drastic heat you get what is called pre-ignition which is what happens when the fuel starts to ignite before the plug fires. This is what causes catastrophic failure because you are basically getting the ignition stroke during the compression stroke pushing against the piston. This will bend or break rods, snap ring and ring lands and or blow the block out or head gaskets. Not good. knock sensors will listen for the beginnings of these sounds to stop the plug from firing to try and prevent this.
Now with fuel and octane rating the lower the octane the easier the fuel ignites. Higher octane fuel will not ignite as easily and or as quickly based on heat. As air is compressed it makes more and more heat. The more air you try to compress, obviously the more heat you make. So with a higher octane fuel it can withstand these compression heat sources and allow for the spark from the motor to be ignited sooner on the power stroke of the piston which is what increases power. Now, with an active knock control system, which is what Ford uses, it allows the use of multi octane fuels by retarding ignition based on real time knock sensing. The knock sensor is a microphone tuned to pick up the knock frequency that the specific motor will produce at compression stroke. There is knock that you can't even hear that Ford tunes into the knock system. Once the PCM senses any voltage from those sensors it's pulls ignition based on pre programmed parameters in the knock control tables in the tune. Some systems will have a self learning active knock tables based on the octane used most often and will retard ignition based on what it has learned over time.
Now with 87 octane, the fuel will ignite MUCH sooner in the compression stroke causing the motor to hold off ignition firing until much later to prevent knock and or pre ignition (catastrophic engine failure). This will usually significantly lower power and torque output when compared to a higher octane premium fuel. It allows the pistons to slow down ever so slightly before exploding the fuel causing power loss and the fact that the fuel is igniting sooner it actually slows the pistons speed down as it is moving up on the compression stroke. Now comparing this to a higher octane fuel it will allow the ignition system to fire sooner at the top of the pistons power stroke and because the higher octane fuel is more resistant to heat detonation the piston can keep more momentum and speed through the compression stroke through the firing stroke. This is why high HP cars require higher octane fuels. For example ethanol usually runs at about 100 octane to 110 octane and they burn much cooler allowing more boost and more ignition because this raises the knock threshold of the motor.
This is just the basics of this subject. Now someone mentioned more heat from ignition retard. That is very true. EGT (exhaust gas temps) rise significantly as it pulls ignition. That is usually bad for the turbos and exhaust valves. But that's a totally different subject. The difference between 87 and 93 octane is tremendous with a turbo motor. I used to make significantly more power just between 91 and 93 octane fuels when I would tune cars from CA compared to cars from MA where I'm from. With the turbo import cars regular 87 octane was not even possibly used at all. The direct injection is what allows that because it atomizes the fuel much better allowing more ignition control. but that is also another subject completely.
I just had to say something here because the amount of bad info being tossed around here was amazing. Some of you were on the right track but a lot of you are just terribly misinformed. So in conclusion, premium fuel is a much better choice for your turbo motor for safety, power and just about every other aspect.
Now to explain how forced induction works. All it does is allow more fuel to be burned with less displacement. So with more air requires more fuel. That's the basics. Now with octane rating, lower octane fuels ignite sooner than higher octane fuels. With turbo motors you are basically increasing cylinder pressures which lowers knock threshold significantly due to increased heat. What happens with an improperly tuned motor is as the cylinder is on the compression stroke the fuel will ignite causing the explosion to push against the piston as it's rising causing that "pinging" noise you hear at times. This is EXTREMELY bad for your motor. With forced induction added to this in drastically increases cylinder pressures even more which increases heat even more. Now with drastic heat you get what is called pre-ignition which is what happens when the fuel starts to ignite before the plug fires. This is what causes catastrophic failure because you are basically getting the ignition stroke during the compression stroke pushing against the piston. This will bend or break rods, snap ring and ring lands and or blow the block out or head gaskets. Not good. knock sensors will listen for the beginnings of these sounds to stop the plug from firing to try and prevent this.
Now with fuel and octane rating the lower the octane the easier the fuel ignites. Higher octane fuel will not ignite as easily and or as quickly based on heat. As air is compressed it makes more and more heat. The more air you try to compress, obviously the more heat you make. So with a higher octane fuel it can withstand these compression heat sources and allow for the spark from the motor to be ignited sooner on the power stroke of the piston which is what increases power. Now, with an active knock control system, which is what Ford uses, it allows the use of multi octane fuels by retarding ignition based on real time knock sensing. The knock sensor is a microphone tuned to pick up the knock frequency that the specific motor will produce at compression stroke. There is knock that you can't even hear that Ford tunes into the knock system. Once the PCM senses any voltage from those sensors it's pulls ignition based on pre programmed parameters in the knock control tables in the tune. Some systems will have a self learning active knock tables based on the octane used most often and will retard ignition based on what it has learned over time.
Now with 87 octane, the fuel will ignite MUCH sooner in the compression stroke causing the motor to hold off ignition firing until much later to prevent knock and or pre ignition (catastrophic engine failure). This will usually significantly lower power and torque output when compared to a higher octane premium fuel. It allows the pistons to slow down ever so slightly before exploding the fuel causing power loss and the fact that the fuel is igniting sooner it actually slows the pistons speed down as it is moving up on the compression stroke. Now comparing this to a higher octane fuel it will allow the ignition system to fire sooner at the top of the pistons power stroke and because the higher octane fuel is more resistant to heat detonation the piston can keep more momentum and speed through the compression stroke through the firing stroke. This is why high HP cars require higher octane fuels. For example ethanol usually runs at about 100 octane to 110 octane and they burn much cooler allowing more boost and more ignition because this raises the knock threshold of the motor.
This is just the basics of this subject. Now someone mentioned more heat from ignition retard. That is very true. EGT (exhaust gas temps) rise significantly as it pulls ignition. That is usually bad for the turbos and exhaust valves. But that's a totally different subject. The difference between 87 and 93 octane is tremendous with a turbo motor. I used to make significantly more power just between 91 and 93 octane fuels when I would tune cars from CA compared to cars from MA where I'm from. With the turbo import cars regular 87 octane was not even possibly used at all. The direct injection is what allows that because it atomizes the fuel much better allowing more ignition control. but that is also another subject completely.
I just had to say something here because the amount of bad info being tossed around here was amazing. Some of you were on the right track but a lot of you are just terribly misinformed. So in conclusion, premium fuel is a much better choice for your turbo motor for safety, power and just about every other aspect.
#3
I disagree with 4b11TX, Premium Fuel is all I run simply do to the fact it is cleaner. Now personally I have not torn down a engine after years of use to compare both mid or high grade fuels but after doing research on this topic specially with turbo engines direct injection, I made up my mind the extra 4 - 6 bucks at the pump does nothing to my wallet but gives me piece of mind on what is being put into the fuel system. But also if you look at dyno sheets higher octane produces more power and I like power.. LOL All in all up to you.
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#4
Senior Member
Premium fuel if fresh may be beneficial, however I believe that premium fuel sits around a lot longer due to fewer people using it. So if you want to run old fuel go for it! I decided to use premium on a trip last summer in my 3.5 eco as I was towing a 28' camper. The first tank I got 8.5 MPG. The second tank I went back to regular and then got nearly 10 MPG. I believe it was due to old fuel. JMHO
#5
Premium fuel if fresh may be beneficial, however I believe that premium fuel sits around a lot longer due to fewer people using it. So if you want to run old fuel go for it! I decided to use premium on a trip last summer in my 3.5 eco as I was towing a 28' camper. The first tank I got 8.5 MPG. The second tank I went back to regular and then got nearly 10 MPG. I believe it was due to old fuel. JMHO
Yeah lot's of variables to this question. I have not had issues like you have thus far but do note acceptable fuel mileage from the premium fuel I use. Getting 19mpg avg on my journeys.
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cwalter (06-21-2018)
#6
Senior Member
Posted many, many times that there is NO advantage to using premium fuel. Unless you operate with a premium fuel tune, you are simply wasting your money. Anyone who says otherwise is not knowledgeable about the facts - you will get a lot of "I've been using it since 1901 and I will till the day I die"... Same people say "I change my oil every 11.3 miles and I swear by it".
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BCMIF150 (01-26-2016)
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#8
Found On Road Dominating
Posted many, many times that there is NO advantage to using premium fuel. Unless you operate with a premium fuel tune, you are simply wasting your money. Anyone who says otherwise is not knowledgeable about the facts - you will get a lot of "I've been using it since 1901 and I will till the day I die"... Same people say "I change my oil every 11.3 miles and I swear by it".
#9
i partially disagree also, even stock tune modern engines have advanded knock sensors (especially turbo engines) that reduce timing before knock occurs, with a higher octane fuel less timing is pulled thus more power is made at the limit, for daily driving however, there will be almost no noticeable difference in mpg. also that Canadian power test is comical, kinda makes me doubt their intelligence in the first place. thinking that adding premium fuel will somehow make the cars engine and wheels require less power to turn is just ignorant. they should have done a proper dyno the record max whp it a high heat/humidity environment. this test could be done alot better.
Last edited by chancejat; 01-24-2016 at 02:58 PM.
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#10
Senior Member
Premium fuel is a definite plus on a modern turbocharged gasoline engine. The knock sensors will allow the ECU to compensate and adjust ignition timing for the octane of the fuel. Those who feel it hurts your wallet go on believing that. That 365hp rating is not on 87 octane. Retarded timing increases exhaust heat to the turbos and may cause the engine to go into enrichment sooner.
Last edited by Gene Hunt; 01-24-2016 at 03:11 PM.
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