Just tell us your under invoice price paid.
01-02-2018, 12:43 PM
#5591
Senior Member
My wife reminded me that I actually did this to a dealer (not intentionally) several years ago when I last got her a car. I did all my research, got invoice, got holdback, negotiated deal, very happy overall, and then the F&I guy got me on a tire protection package. BMW run-flats are expensive and those are pretty popular with those dealers. I knew this seemed familiar. I am getting old.
What happened was they offered extra rebates, etc. in exchange for the package. I immediately went for "how about just the extra rebate then" and hardball ensued. The way it worked out was $800 "off" the tire package through a tax credit (in Texas dealers store these up, probably the same as many other states). The actual protection plan was billed at full price and the credit came off the vehicle price, which was already a good deal though clearly not as good as I thought since they came up with another $800. Which he flat out wasn't going to give sans package, though I suppose at that point I could have (should have) walked off and seen what happened.
I don't remember why, but I did ask - and read, right there at the desk - the cancellation policy. Most F&I are happy to tell you about it, it's part of the sales pitch, I assume because they know most people never bother to cancel. I bothered
Stuck in my craw a little bit and after I had some time to let it settle in and do the research I should have done beforehand I went through the cancellation process. It was through SafeGuard as I recall and it was actually pretty painless, though it took a while to get the money back (a few weeks). I didn't have to deal with the F&I guy again either, just submitted online, then had to send a registered letter (a pointless hoop they make you jump through sometimes). Big deal, that was a 10 minute trip to the Post Office and $4.
Anyway I got the package cost refunded 100% (I did it the week after) and kept the "extra" rebate on the vehicle, since that wasn't actually part of the package, just F&I tomfoolery. Like I said I knew there was a reason this seemed familiar to me.
So, Wxmcpo, this is just random advice on the internet, no guarantees this will happen for you, that you'll have the same experience, or I'm right, take it or leave it, etc. but if I were you I'd look in to cancelling the ESP, Maint., and Gap - the latter assuming you can get a better deal from your insurance company which you probably can. You could end up with a half-decent deal in the end after all
What happened was they offered extra rebates, etc. in exchange for the package. I immediately went for "how about just the extra rebate then" and hardball ensued. The way it worked out was $800 "off" the tire package through a tax credit (in Texas dealers store these up, probably the same as many other states). The actual protection plan was billed at full price and the credit came off the vehicle price, which was already a good deal though clearly not as good as I thought since they came up with another $800. Which he flat out wasn't going to give sans package, though I suppose at that point I could have (should have) walked off and seen what happened.
I don't remember why, but I did ask - and read, right there at the desk - the cancellation policy. Most F&I are happy to tell you about it, it's part of the sales pitch, I assume because they know most people never bother to cancel. I bothered
Stuck in my craw a little bit and after I had some time to let it settle in and do the research I should have done beforehand I went through the cancellation process. It was through SafeGuard as I recall and it was actually pretty painless, though it took a while to get the money back (a few weeks). I didn't have to deal with the F&I guy again either, just submitted online, then had to send a registered letter (a pointless hoop they make you jump through sometimes). Big deal, that was a 10 minute trip to the Post Office and $4.Anyway I got the package cost refunded 100% (I did it the week after) and kept the "extra" rebate on the vehicle, since that wasn't actually part of the package, just F&I tomfoolery. Like I said I knew there was a reason this seemed familiar to me.
So, Wxmcpo, this is just random advice on the internet, no guarantees this will happen for you, that you'll have the same experience, or I'm right, take it or leave it, etc. but if I were you I'd look in to cancelling the ESP, Maint., and Gap - the latter assuming you can get a better deal from your insurance company which you probably can. You could end up with a half-decent deal in the end after all
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wxmcpo (01-03-2018)
01-02-2018, 01:08 PM
#5592
Senior Member
Ok back to me
Going to see a Plat. later today. Been dealing with the guy over email. Using Toptobottom's excellent spreadsheet and reading this thread again....
Pertinent points from spreadsheet:
MSRP (Blue Box): $64875
Dealer Cost (Break Even): $58390
I am targeting at least a 10% dealer discount. Target price before incentives/fees/TTL incl. Destination:
$58517
I believe as of 1/2/18 I still qualify for $2750 in Ford rebates based on my zip and other factors. Tomorrow the new rebates come out which may or may not be better - I don't know how it works usually this early in the year.
My total OTD after TTL, rebates, and dealer discount (that I want) is:
$59644
Texas sales tax is 6.25% for reference. There's also a $150 "doc" fee that I factored in but am going to try to get out of.
This seem like a solid offer to make? Or should I try for more? I'm going to walk in and offer 58,500 (not incl. Ford rebates), which is a 10% dealer discount. Right now he is offering $60,448 (not incl. rebates). That is a 6.73% dealer discount. We haven't gotten in to the nitty gritty yet though. Something tells me I could do even better - is 12% out of the question for Platinums? I suppose I should start there and find out
Going to see a Plat. later today. Been dealing with the guy over email. Using Toptobottom's excellent spreadsheet and reading this thread again....
Pertinent points from spreadsheet:
MSRP (Blue Box): $64875
Dealer Cost (Break Even): $58390
I am targeting at least a 10% dealer discount. Target price before incentives/fees/TTL incl. Destination:
$58517
I believe as of 1/2/18 I still qualify for $2750 in Ford rebates based on my zip and other factors. Tomorrow the new rebates come out which may or may not be better - I don't know how it works usually this early in the year.
My total OTD after TTL, rebates, and dealer discount (that I want) is:
$59644
Texas sales tax is 6.25% for reference. There's also a $150 "doc" fee that I factored in but am going to try to get out of.
This seem like a solid offer to make? Or should I try for more? I'm going to walk in and offer 58,500 (not incl. Ford rebates), which is a 10% dealer discount. Right now he is offering $60,448 (not incl. rebates). That is a 6.73% dealer discount. We haven't gotten in to the nitty gritty yet though. Something tells me I could do even better - is 12% out of the question for Platinums? I suppose I should start there and find out
01-02-2018, 01:43 PM
#5593
DISCOUNT JEDI MASTER
My wife reminded me that I actually did this to a dealer (not intentionally) several years ago when I last got her a car. I did all my research, got invoice, got holdback, negotiated deal, very happy overall, and then the F&I guy got me on a tire protection package. BMW run-flats are expensive and those are pretty popular with those dealers. I knew this seemed familiar. I am getting old.
What happened was they offered extra rebates, etc. in exchange for the package. I immediately went for "how about just the extra rebate then" and hardball ensued. The way it worked out was $800 "off" the tire package through a tax credit (in Texas dealers store these up, probably the same as many other states). The actual protection plan was billed at full price and the credit came off the vehicle price, which was already a good deal though clearly not as good as I thought since they came up with another $800. Which he flat out wasn't going to give sans package, though I suppose at that point I could have (should have) walked off and seen what happened.
I don't remember why, but I did ask - and read, right there at the desk - the cancellation policy. Most F&I are happy to tell you about it, it's part of the sales pitch, I assume because they know most people never bother to cancel. I bothered Stuck in my craw a little bit and after I had some time to let it settle in and do the research I should have done beforehand I went through the cancellation process. It was through SafeGuard as I recall and it was actually pretty painless, though it took a while to get the money back (a few weeks). I didn't have to deal with the F&I guy again either, just submitted online, then had to send a registered letter (a pointless hoop they make you jump through sometimes). Big deal, that was a 10 minute trip to the Post Office and $4.
Anyway I got the package cost refunded 100% (I did it the week after) and kept the "extra" rebate on the vehicle, since that wasn't actually part of the package, just F&I tomfoolery. Like I said I knew there was a reason this seemed familiar to me.
So, Wxmcpo, this is just random advice on the internet, no guarantees this will happen for you, that you'll have the same experience, or I'm right, take it or leave it, etc. but if I were you I'd look in to cancelling the ESP, Maint., and Gap - the latter assuming you can get a better deal from your insurance company which you probably can. You could end up with a half-decent deal in the end after all
What happened was they offered extra rebates, etc. in exchange for the package. I immediately went for "how about just the extra rebate then" and hardball ensued. The way it worked out was $800 "off" the tire package through a tax credit (in Texas dealers store these up, probably the same as many other states). The actual protection plan was billed at full price and the credit came off the vehicle price, which was already a good deal though clearly not as good as I thought since they came up with another $800. Which he flat out wasn't going to give sans package, though I suppose at that point I could have (should have) walked off and seen what happened.
I don't remember why, but I did ask - and read, right there at the desk - the cancellation policy. Most F&I are happy to tell you about it, it's part of the sales pitch, I assume because they know most people never bother to cancel. I bothered
Stuck in my craw a little bit and after I had some time to let it settle in and do the research I should have done beforehand I went through the cancellation process. It was through SafeGuard as I recall and it was actually pretty painless, though it took a while to get the money back (a few weeks). I didn't have to deal with the F&I guy again either, just submitted online, then had to send a registered letter (a pointless hoop they make you jump through sometimes). Big deal, that was a 10 minute trip to the Post Office and $4.Anyway I got the package cost refunded 100% (I did it the week after) and kept the "extra" rebate on the vehicle, since that wasn't actually part of the package, just F&I tomfoolery. Like I said I knew there was a reason this seemed familiar to me.
So, Wxmcpo, this is just random advice on the internet, no guarantees this will happen for you, that you'll have the same experience, or I'm right, take it or leave it, etc. but if I were you I'd look in to cancelling the ESP, Maint., and Gap - the latter assuming you can get a better deal from your insurance company which you probably can. You could end up with a half-decent deal in the end after all
If he was adamant about having them, some owners are, he should have purchased this stuff for less online through Flood Ford or Ziegler Ford. I know I've seen guys say they got 7 yr/100K for $1,250. Like you said they're not worth it. Just park the cost of the policy in a money market fund or set $50 a month aside for the 1st 3years of warranty build up a reserve and after that, you keep building it up as the truck gets older with a higher likelihood of some repairs being needed. If your truck never has any major repairs in 6 years, and you upgrade, you now have an nice instant reserve to build upon once again.
I've never done Gap but the credit union I went with for the refinance offered it at $299 so it was a no-brainer being that I live in deer country and people here total vehicles almost daily. I figured at that price why not. I thought my auto insurance was steep at $399, but $850!!!
Everybody got Xmas bonuses at that Dealership after that Sale.Here's a FAQ from the Ford Warranty pages
Q: Can I cancel my Ford ESP?
A: Yes. All Ford ESP contracts can be canceled for a full refund within 30 days (if you have not used any aspect of the plan). Beyond 60 days, you will receive a pro-rated refund from Ford Motor Company. To cancel a Ford ESP you must call the dealership where you purchased the contract. If the dealership is unable to help you please call Ford Motor Company at 1-800-367-3377.
I would however go through the Dealer and cancel because you're not likely to get back the Dealer profit portion of the plan cost. (assumption)
Last edited by toptobottom; 01-02-2018 at 01:46 PM.
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wxmcpo (01-03-2018)
01-02-2018, 02:14 PM
#5595
DISCOUNT JEDI MASTER
Ok back to me
Going to see a Plat. later today. Been dealing with the guy over email. Using Toptobottom's excellent spreadsheet and reading this thread again....
Pertinent points from spreadsheet:
MSRP (Blue Box): $64875
Dealer Cost (Break Even): $58390
I am targeting at least a 10% dealer discount. Target price before incentives/fees/TTL incl. Destination:
$58517
I believe as of 1/2/18 I still qualify for $2750 in Ford rebates based on my zip and other factors. Tomorrow the new rebates come out which may or may not be better - I don't know how it works usually this early in the year.
My total OTD after TTL, rebates, and dealer discount (that I want) is:
$59644
Texas sales tax is 6.25% for reference. There's also a $150 "doc" fee that I factored in but am going to try to get out of.
This seem like a solid offer to make? Or should I try for more? I'm going to walk in and offer 58,500 (not incl. Ford rebates), which is a 10% dealer discount. Right now he is offering $60,448 (not incl. rebates). That is a 6.73% dealer discount. We haven't gotten in to the nitty gritty yet though. Something tells me I could do even better - is 12% out of the question for Platinums? I suppose I should start there and find out
Going to see a Plat. later today. Been dealing with the guy over email. Using Toptobottom's excellent spreadsheet and reading this thread again....
Pertinent points from spreadsheet:
MSRP (Blue Box): $64875
Dealer Cost (Break Even): $58390
I am targeting at least a 10% dealer discount. Target price before incentives/fees/TTL incl. Destination:
$58517
I believe as of 1/2/18 I still qualify for $2750 in Ford rebates based on my zip and other factors. Tomorrow the new rebates come out which may or may not be better - I don't know how it works usually this early in the year.
My total OTD after TTL, rebates, and dealer discount (that I want) is:
$59644
Texas sales tax is 6.25% for reference. There's also a $150 "doc" fee that I factored in but am going to try to get out of.
This seem like a solid offer to make? Or should I try for more? I'm going to walk in and offer 58,500 (not incl. Ford rebates), which is a 10% dealer discount. Right now he is offering $60,448 (not incl. rebates). That is a 6.73% dealer discount. We haven't gotten in to the nitty gritty yet though. Something tells me I could do even better - is 12% out of the question for Platinums? I suppose I should start there and find out
Regardless, I would not waltz in there and throw a number at them. Worse thing is giving your number out prematurely. You have too large of a gap and their feathers get ruffled immediately when wise guys come at them in this manner. It's a natural human reaction to shut you down as an unreasonable Buyer. This is when they most likely will halt any further communication/negotiation. I'm a firm believer that you have to dine, dance and then engage in foreplay. Now you're ready throw them you're number as the gap will be close (no pun intended).
You're late to the party here to try what you're planning. You see, you must not have read this a ways back. It's the beginning of the month for Dealer and their not hurting for a Sale on the 1st day, especially when it's a New Year. Rebate deadline is today - I know! But, you'll just have to roll the dice and go with whatever they are. If they go up, you're a winner and you can pace your deal to have the Dealer keep coming down in price quote after quote. Then go in for the kill. It's a don't show your hand until you've seen all of their cards. Time and patience will get you at least the 10% if not more toward that nice 12%.
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sundevil98 (03-20-2018)
01-02-2018, 02:17 PM
#5596
DISCOUNT JEDI MASTER
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BCMIF150 (01-02-2018)
01-02-2018, 02:30 PM
#5597
Senior Member
Details guy Details!!! It's always about the details. I can't stress this enough. What year are we talking about? Makes a difference!
Regardless, I would not waltz in there and throw a number at them. Worse thing is giving your number out prematurely. You have too large of a gap and their feathers get ruffled immediately when wise guys come at them in this manner. It's a natural human reaction to shut you down as an unreasonable Buyer. This is when they most likely will halt any further communication/negotiation. I'm a firm believer that you have to dine, dance and then engage in foreplay. Now you're ready throw them you're number as the gap will be close (no pun intended).
You're late to the party here to try what you're planning. You see, you must not have read this a ways back. It's the beginning of the month for Dealer and their not hurting for a Sale on the 1st day, especially when it's a New Year. Rebate deadline is today - I know! But, you'll just have to roll the dice and go with whatever they are. If they go up, you're a winner and you can pace your deal to have the Dealer keep coming down in price quote after quote. Then go in for the kill. It's a don't show your hand until you've seen all of their cards. Time and patience will get you at least the 10% if not more toward that nice 12%.
Regardless, I would not waltz in there and throw a number at them. Worse thing is giving your number out prematurely. You have too large of a gap and their feathers get ruffled immediately when wise guys come at them in this manner. It's a natural human reaction to shut you down as an unreasonable Buyer. This is when they most likely will halt any further communication/negotiation. I'm a firm believer that you have to dine, dance and then engage in foreplay. Now you're ready throw them you're number as the gap will be close (no pun intended).
You're late to the party here to try what you're planning. You see, you must not have read this a ways back. It's the beginning of the month for Dealer and their not hurting for a Sale on the 1st day, especially when it's a New Year. Rebate deadline is today - I know! But, you'll just have to roll the dice and go with whatever they are. If they go up, you're a winner and you can pace your deal to have the Dealer keep coming down in price quote after quote. Then go in for the kill. It's a don't show your hand until you've seen all of their cards. Time and patience will get you at least the 10% if not more toward that nice 12%.
It is a 2018 Platinum 4x4 with 701a, off-road, extended tank. No dealer adds like spray-in, etc.
I'm going to go drive it and set up a relationship with the guy see how it works out without throwing out dumb numbers, to your point. In my (heavy) advantage: I am in no rush to buy. If it turns out I am better off waiting a few months or even longer that isn't a problem. I own my current 2008 outright and have for years. Second thing in my favor is affordability: I can pay cash upfront if that makes for a better deal. I am not worried about a monthly payment budget or any of that. I want the right deal for the right truck.
01-02-2018, 02:53 PM
#5598
DISCOUNT JEDI MASTER
Good advice thanks. I know it may seem like I am rushing but I am actually not in a huge hurry at all.
It is a 2018 Platinum 4x4 with 701a, off-road, extended tank. No dealer adds like spray-in, etc.
I'm going to go drive it and set up a relationship with the guy see how it works out without throwing out dumb numbers, to your point. In my (heavy) advantage: I am in no rush to buy. If it turns out I am better off waiting a few months or even longer that isn't a problem. I own my current 2008 outright and have for years. Second thing in my favor is affordability: I can pay cash upfront if that makes for a better deal. I am not worried about a monthly payment budget or any of that. I want the right deal for the right truck.
It is a 2018 Platinum 4x4 with 701a, off-road, extended tank. No dealer adds like spray-in, etc.
I'm going to go drive it and set up a relationship with the guy see how it works out without throwing out dumb numbers, to your point. In my (heavy) advantage: I am in no rush to buy. If it turns out I am better off waiting a few months or even longer that isn't a problem. I own my current 2008 outright and have for years. Second thing in my favor is affordability: I can pay cash upfront if that makes for a better deal. I am not worried about a monthly payment budget or any of that. I want the right deal for the right truck.
The 2018's are going to be discounted less than the 2017's so 10.5% looks more realistic based only on last quarters tightened discounting. They may be loosening up but we won't know that until some New Year verified purchases are provided here.
01-02-2018, 02:57 PM
#5599
Senior Member
Going to the Dealership and engaging with a Sales Gnome will cost you approx. $500 less in discount because of commission.
The 2018's are going to be discounted less than the 2017's so 10.5% looks more realistic based only on last quarters tightened discounting. They may be loosening up but we won't know that until some New Year verified purchases are provided here.
The 2018's are going to be discounted less than the 2017's so 10.5% looks more realistic based only on last quarters tightened discounting. They may be loosening up but we won't know that until some New Year verified purchases are provided here.
I keep going through the past posts but I feel like maybe I missed an important one here - the initial engagement?
01-02-2018, 03:04 PM
#5600
DISCOUNT JEDI MASTER
How do I avoid that? The sales Gnome in this case is one of the internet sales reps who I engaged with originally via email. I'm not going to walk on the lot and get picked up by one of the random jr. guys who queue by the door and wait
I keep going through the past posts but I feel like maybe I missed an important one here - the initial engagement?
I keep going through the past posts but I feel like maybe I missed an important one here - the initial engagement?
Forge ahead then and have some fun! I just don't like wasting time at showrooms anymore. Shopping local in my case for the F150 was a big waste of time even doing by email.