J15

Right...
Moving along:

The $3k is the price for a diesel service plan. If you want to talk about your EB, the 5 year/100k service plan averages out to $85.50 per visit. That's more than paying for "the works" on a per visit basis. If you got the service plan for a lower price when you bought the vehicle, that doesn't make the service plan cheaper. It means they cooked enough profit into the purchase price that you subsidized your own service plan when you signed the dotted line.

Yes, how dare I use firsthand experience with diesel trucks in a discussion about diesel trucks? It's absolutely ridiculous. Please, forgive me for talking about diesel trucks while you contemplated the possibility of pleasuring yourself with a cow.

If you want facts, let's talk facts. Per the Ram website, the ecodiesel is a $4200 option.

At this very moment, regular gasoline by me is $2.53 per gallon and diesel is $2.79 per gallon. According to the EPA numbers, the gas engine gets 21mpg highway and the diesel engine gets 27mpg highway. We'll be charitable in this discussion and ignore the cost differences for all of the following:

- The drop in fuel economy when the diesel engine enters a DPF regeneration cycle
- The 6mpg advantage over the gas engine you lose when you take that 1/2 ton diesel off the highway (27 vs 21 goes down to 16 vs 15)
- The diesel exhaust fluid you're buying in addition to the diesel fuel itself
- The difference in maintenance costs (oil changes, fuel filters, emissions equipment, etc) for each engine
- The difference in service plan costs if you're opting in
- The tax you're paying on that $4200 diesel option

Gas engine:
$2.53 per gallon divided by 21mpg = $0.12 per mile in fuel costs

Diesel engine:
$2.79 per gallon divided by 27mpg = $0.10 per mile in fuel costs

Net savings:
$0.12/mile - $0.10/mile = $0.02 per mile in fuel savings with the diesel

$4200 diesel option cost divided by 2 cents per mile in fuel savings = 210,000 miles to break even "on fuel economy alone".

Now, I'm sure somebody is going to come in here and say "well diesel doesn't cost that much by me, so your numbers don't matter." Fair enough. Let's explore that possibility. Let's say diesel costs exactly the same as gasoline.

Gas engine:
$2.53 per gallon divided by 21mpg = $0.12 per mile in fuel costs

Diesel engine:
$2.53 per gallon divided by 27mpg = $0.09 per mile in fuel costs

Net savings:
$0.12/mile - $0.09/mile = $0.03 per mile in fuel savings with the diesel (50% improvement over last example)

$4200 diesel option cost divided by 3 cents per mile in fuel savings = 140,000 miles to break even "on fuel economy alone".

Still not satisfied? Didn't think so. Let's dig even deeper here. Let's say you can buy diesel at a dirt cheap price of $2 per gallon. It's 20% cheaper than gas! Surely the diesel must be a better choice now. Let's take a look:

Gas engine:
$2.53 per gallon divided by 21mpg = $0.12 per mile in fuel costs

Diesel engine:
$2.00 per gallon divided by 27mpg = $0.07 per mile in fuel costs

Net savings:
$0.12/mile - $0.07/mile = $0.05 per mile in fuel savings with the diesel (150% improvement over first example)

$4200 diesel option cost divided by 5 cents per mile in fuel savings = 84,000 miles to break even "on fuel economy alone".

But wait! You said that it only takes 60,000 miles to break even on that diesel. If that's true, how much cheaper does the diesel need to be? About $1.16 per gallon below the cost of gas.

Gas engine:
$2.53 per gallon divided by 21mpg = $0.12 per mile in fuel costs

Diesel engine:
$1.37 per gallon divided by 27mpg = $0.05 per mile in fuel costs

Net savings:
$0.12/mile - $0.05/mile = $0.07 per mile in fuel savings with the diesel (250% improvement over first example)

$4200 diesel option cost divided by 7 cents per mile in fuel savings = 60,000 miles to break even "on fuel economy alone".

That being said, this is the key takeaway: in order to break even on the diesel option using fuel costs alone, you need to own the truck for over 200,000 miles, spend $0 more on maintenance over a gas engine, never drive the truck off the highway, never have a regeneration cycle, get a tax exemption for $4200 of your purchase, and never buy diesel exhaust fluid - which, by the way, would run out at about 3000 miles and put your truck into limp mode. Oh, and speaking of limping, you're driving a 5600lb truck with 300hp. You're in the same performance class as a Prius. Seriously, check the 0-60 times. Prius.


Good talk.

mikeinatlanta

Don't care how boring the back and forth between you two is, that right there was funny.

platinum99

Diesel exhaust fluid should be added in there for a total fluid consumption cost.

J15

You’re absolutely right. This example was to show how even the fairy tale comparison is a losing proposition. Imagine what those numbers would look like after DEF, regeneration cycles, diesel oil changes, and god forbid you have an emissions related failure after the warranty is up... yeesh. Your grandkids would probably be buying their first truck by the time you break even.

overpropped

Dude you freaking nailed it

I have been saying this for years. I thought the Ram ecodumpster was gonna be a game changer for 1/2 tons.

So I test drove one and was offended by how slow it was. What a turd. I would be scared to pull out in traffic in that.

Then I started doing the math and what a joke.

Why Ford or Chevy are doing this is beyond me.

J15

It’s an exciting concept that plays out poorly once you run honest numbers. I stand behind my previous statement that you’re better off buying a new 3.5EB or a used 6.7. The EB gives you the towing performance at a reasonable fuel economy for a truck and the 6.7 gives you the monster torque.

Gerrard155

This whole thread-just lol all over. I paticularly like the one guy “yelling” at the top of his lungs that facts need to be presented to counter his factless argument was precious.

heres the bottom line folks-unless Ford prices their diesel significantly lower than the Ram it will not save money for 90-95% of buyers. Anyone who says otherwise either in a fairly unique situation or is fooling themselves. The analysis above shows this in detail, and thats before any advanced financial mechanisms are applied to the analysis (time value of money for instance)

With that said-its America, if you want it buy it. Just dont try and spread some nonsense that you are saving money (you aren't).

I wish more people in this country today would focus on trying to have an informed conversation rather than just yelling the first thing that pops into their head while spouting personal attacks anytime someone disagrees with them.

wiread

yelling feels better, and if you look around in this thread, and others, most of the time they're yelling about an argument they want to be having, it really has very little to do with what is actually being said. Some people like to play victims, while blaming "victims" and yell a lot

I spent the better part of 18 months debating a RAM eco diesel, and then wanting to wait for Ford and Chevy to bring more competition. Mostly I was interested in reading about the technology going into them, and in the end, it really didn't make much sense for me to even consider one, but it was fun

Slowtrucker

Finding out that you really do like to pork cows made this thread very special.


Your analysis is based on numbers posted that have to be approved by several different government agencies. EPA and FTC are two. EPA says this is the way mileage numbers are reached and FTC says you cannot advertise something that cannot be attained all the time. Why else do you think NONE of the auto makers publish economy numbers for the heavy duty diesel class trucks?


However, I am only reporting facts as we have experienced them and applied them to the calculations used. I am absolutely positive that your facts taken from the heavy duty diesel world must rule all classes of vehicles.


I bow to your superior everything.


Clearly anyone driving a diesel needs their head examined because the ONLY fuel worth anything is gasoline that is a by product of the diesel refining product (as said by an ASTM fuels specialist I run around with).


Enjoy your Christmas

J15

The 3.0 and the ecodiesel aren’t heavy duty diesels. They’re light duty diesels with independently verified fuel economy numbers published by the time of release. First you say we shouldn’t be talking about 3/4 ton diesel trucks here, then you go straight to them when you get your *** handed to you using numbers provided by the half ton diesel manufacturer directly. Do you even think before you talk? In your half baked attempt to refute what I posted, you actually admitted that the diesel won’t get the mileage advertised. We know for a fact the gas engines are capable of doing it, meaning the diesel is even less valuable in a break-even context. Thus far your only contributions to this thread have been cheesy straw man arguments, baseless claims, denial of published facts, and petty insults. Please, prove me wrong. In your own words, share with us the math that shows you’ll break even at 60,000 miles on a half ton diesel using fuel savings alone. We’ll wait.

At this point I think we can all agree that you’re trolling or you lack the intelligence to share a coherent thought. Ignorance is bliss.