Towing and drivetrain all trims equal??
02-13-2017, 01:10 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Towing and drivetrain all trims equal??
Let's say a F 150 late model base or loaded all have the same frame and braking system only difference is the engine and axle ratios . Transmission is same as well correct ? So from a handling and stopping point aren't all trims about equal
.?? The big difference is how fast you get up to speed
I am not advocateing overloading from a safety point . What I am getting at is sometimes I go over my tow rating of my truck but not more than another f150 trim level . This being the case what is the down side as far as the truck goes .
Please no flaming , I just want thoughtful answers . I have been towing and hauling stuff for over 30 years.
.?? The big difference is how fast you get up to speed
I am not advocateing overloading from a safety point . What I am getting at is sometimes I go over my tow rating of my truck but not more than another f150 trim level . This being the case what is the down side as far as the truck goes .
Please no flaming , I just want thoughtful answers . I have been towing and hauling stuff for over 30 years.
02-13-2017, 06:29 AM
#2
The differences between base or loaded is the options. These options (power seats/moon roof/heated+cooled seats/running boards/tailgate step/etc... add weight and subtract from the payload and tow rating. Wheel and tire size also add to or subtract from the tow rating.
As to: "...what is the downside as far as the truck goes." (as you put it referring to exceeding those limits) is that you are exceeding the maximum rating given by the manufacturer for your truck with it's unique options. One could argue that exceeding those maximums will affect longevity but it will also affect the ability of the vehicle to handle/stop/whatever...If you get into an accident overloaded causing bodily harm or death while your vehicle is overloaded the consequences will likely be very severe and any argument about what another vehicle's capability is will not be heard.
As to: "...what is the downside as far as the truck goes." (as you put it referring to exceeding those limits) is that you are exceeding the maximum rating given by the manufacturer for your truck with it's unique options. One could argue that exceeding those maximums will affect longevity but it will also affect the ability of the vehicle to handle/stop/whatever...If you get into an accident overloaded causing bodily harm or death while your vehicle is overloaded the consequences will likely be very severe and any argument about what another vehicle's capability is will not be heard.
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Ricktwuhk (02-13-2017)
02-13-2017, 07:18 AM
#3
The ford towing guide: http://www.fleet.ford.ca/resources/f...Tgde_Sep30.pdf does not distinguish on trim levels, just hove the chassis is equipped (axle ratios) and tow package levels (max tow, towing package, etc). That gives you your max trailer weight and your GCWR. Some things change how the chassis is equipped. For example; the max tow package gets the 9.75 rear axle vice the 8.8 in some of the other option levels.
But that's not the whole story.
You have to take into account your GVWR, which is effectively your payload rating: GVWR - Curb weight = available payload. Payload is more or less the "layman's way" of understanding GVWR, since most people don't seem to quite grasp it and you pretty much have to scale it to know if you're under or over. The average Schmuck has an easier time understanding "you can only add XXXX weight to the truck" instead of "you can't go over XXXX total weight".
If you can't stay under your GVWR with trailer and "stuff" on board, you won't meet the manufacturers rating IAW SAE J2807. I've attached a copy, be ready to read, it's engineer speak. Google SAE J2807 and you can find several good summaries of it.
Your trim level effects your GVWR and also your GCWR. More truck weight, less available payload and the less weight you can have in the trailer. So yup, trim level effects towing.
What that effect is can be somewhat in question though. It won't meet the testing parameters in the J2807, but how far outside the rated performance is something now one can answer. It may take longer to get it rolling, it may take longer to stop it, it may overheat, it may sway more than expected, etc. Could be any one of those testing parameters that come into play first.
You can be minimally outside spec and not have any noticeable negative effects or you can be a bit more and have a tiger waiting to bite you at the worst time......you just don't know because it hasn't been tested/verified......
I know that's kind of a vague answer, but it's not really a question where you can give an exacting answer.
Longevity of the truck is more related to cooling than anything else, unless you're grossly overloading a truck and actually damage things like axles, springs and frames. Older gen trucks (ecoboost) usually had extra radiator cooling and transmission coolers (it was called "supercooling" in the option list I think). 2015+ trucks all have the same engine cooling capacity (don't quote me on that), but trailer packages add different transmission coolers. Towing builds heat, excessive heat kills transmissions and engines. Hence, more cooling on trailer packages.
As to the legality of it: I'll leave the courts and "suing" side of that alone. I will say that they can scale trailers in parts of Canada (RCMP can do it anywhere actually) and if you're over the ratings for your truck, you're parking it until you get a bigger truck or get it withing the ratings. I've had to retrieve friends trailers a couple times (my old K2500 diesel) becasue they were stopped, weighed and they were over their ratings. Best to check your local laws before heading out over (or if you think you are close) to your ratings.
But that's not the whole story.
You have to take into account your GVWR, which is effectively your payload rating: GVWR - Curb weight = available payload. Payload is more or less the "layman's way" of understanding GVWR, since most people don't seem to quite grasp it and you pretty much have to scale it to know if you're under or over. The average Schmuck has an easier time understanding "you can only add XXXX weight to the truck" instead of "you can't go over XXXX total weight".
If you can't stay under your GVWR with trailer and "stuff" on board, you won't meet the manufacturers rating IAW SAE J2807. I've attached a copy, be ready to read, it's engineer speak. Google SAE J2807 and you can find several good summaries of it.
Your trim level effects your GVWR and also your GCWR. More truck weight, less available payload and the less weight you can have in the trailer. So yup, trim level effects towing.
What that effect is can be somewhat in question though. It won't meet the testing parameters in the J2807, but how far outside the rated performance is something now one can answer. It may take longer to get it rolling, it may take longer to stop it, it may overheat, it may sway more than expected, etc. Could be any one of those testing parameters that come into play first.
You can be minimally outside spec and not have any noticeable negative effects or you can be a bit more and have a tiger waiting to bite you at the worst time......you just don't know because it hasn't been tested/verified......
I know that's kind of a vague answer, but it's not really a question where you can give an exacting answer.
Longevity of the truck is more related to cooling than anything else, unless you're grossly overloading a truck and actually damage things like axles, springs and frames. Older gen trucks (ecoboost) usually had extra radiator cooling and transmission coolers (it was called "supercooling" in the option list I think). 2015+ trucks all have the same engine cooling capacity (don't quote me on that), but trailer packages add different transmission coolers. Towing builds heat, excessive heat kills transmissions and engines. Hence, more cooling on trailer packages.
As to the legality of it: I'll leave the courts and "suing" side of that alone. I will say that they can scale trailers in parts of Canada (RCMP can do it anywhere actually) and if you're over the ratings for your truck, you're parking it until you get a bigger truck or get it withing the ratings. I've had to retrieve friends trailers a couple times (my old K2500 diesel) becasue they were stopped, weighed and they were over their ratings. Best to check your local laws before heading out over (or if you think you are close) to your ratings.
Last edited by Great white; 02-13-2017 at 08:11 AM.
02-13-2017, 03:14 PM
#4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Both very detailed answers but not exactly what I was looking for. Let me put it this way
Take a trailer with a total weight of 8,000 pounds and hook it too each of the following
3.7,2.7,5.0,3.5,6.2 and lets say all these are long wheel base regular cabs with the same gear ratio . Other than acceleration would not the stopping and handling be the same ??
Are they not all the Same Frame, brakes ,transmission just engine power difference .
Take a trailer with a total weight of 8,000 pounds and hook it too each of the following
3.7,2.7,5.0,3.5,6.2 and lets say all these are long wheel base regular cabs with the same gear ratio . Other than acceleration would not the stopping and handling be the same ??
Are they not all the Same Frame, brakes ,transmission just engine power difference .
02-13-2017, 03:17 PM
#5
Senior Member
No, as answered prior, based on the options in each truck. If the truck was equipped exactly the same, and the drivetrains weighed exactly the same, and the wheels/tires were exactly the same, then yes.
Of course an 8,000 pound load is beyond capacity for many F-150 configurations. Way beyond for some.
Edit - many people mistakenly use Ford's numbers from their site or a brochure to figure capacity, when each vehicle is unique. Payload is printed on a sticker on the door jamb (along with other weights) and is usually the limiter.
Of course an 8,000 pound load is beyond capacity for many F-150 configurations. Way beyond for some.
Edit - many people mistakenly use Ford's numbers from their site or a brochure to figure capacity, when each vehicle is unique. Payload is printed on a sticker on the door jamb (along with other weights) and is usually the limiter.
Last edited by Ricktwuhk; 02-13-2017 at 03:48 PM.
02-13-2017, 03:45 PM
#6
It sounds to me that you are trying to justify overloading your truck just because it wouldn't be overloaded on another trim level. As has been said capacity is vehicle specific and the only time you could expect a truck to be the same is if both trucks are identical in every way. You also need to keep in mind the numbers that Ford publishes are best case with very specific configurations. The more common configurations are frequently well below those values. Again it is back to the total truck not just one component or set of components.
02-13-2017, 03:47 PM
#7
Here's an analogy for you:
A house that is purchased empty can fit a lot more furniture than a house purchased that comes fully furnished.
An XL truck without options can take more wait than an Platnium that is loaded with 1k pounds of options because they are built on the same foundation/chassis. This is why companies purchase fleet vehicles with less options - they are then more capable to handle/tow extra weight.
A house that is purchased empty can fit a lot more furniture than a house purchased that comes fully furnished.
An XL truck without options can take more wait than an Platnium that is loaded with 1k pounds of options because they are built on the same foundation/chassis. This is why companies purchase fleet vehicles with less options - they are then more capable to handle/tow extra weight.
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BRUTE448 (02-13-2017)
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02-13-2017, 04:52 PM
#8
The ford towing guide: http://www.fleet.ford.ca/resources/f...Tgde_Sep30.pdf
Your trim level effects your GVWR and also your GCWR.
Your trim level effects your GVWR and also your GCWR.
I have yet to see a case in the 15+ in which Trim Level itself effected GVWR and GCWR Ford Spec Book certainly doesn't show that.
Now you can make a case that an XL HDPP (17") is rated at 7600 GVWR and XLT HDPP (18") is rated at 7850 GVWR but Ford defines them by wheel size not trim level.
Last edited by Gene K; 02-13-2017 at 10:53 PM.
02-13-2017, 05:33 PM
#9
Both very detailed answers but not exactly what I was looking for. Let me put it this way
Take a trailer with a total weight of 8,000 pounds and hook it too each of the following
3.7,2.7,5.0,3.5,6.2 and lets say all these are long wheel base regular cabs with the same gear ratio . Other than acceleration would not the stopping and handling be the same ??
Are they not all the Same Frame, brakes ,transmission just engine power difference .
Take a trailer with a total weight of 8,000 pounds and hook it too each of the following
3.7,2.7,5.0,3.5,6.2 and lets say all these are long wheel base regular cabs with the same gear ratio . Other than acceleration would not the stopping and handling be the same ??
Are they not all the Same Frame, brakes ,transmission just engine power difference .
Your engine choices come from two different generation trucks.
Your basic premise of identical chassis is incorrect.
I'm going to compare 2015 RCLB 2WD with standard suspension below. I'm going to ignore the 3.7 and 6.2 because they are a different generation truck.
With the current generation trucks assuming they all had the tow package to get the aux trans cooler and the oil cooler on the 3.5L Ti-VCT (std on other engines) you still have the problem of rear axles and suspensions.
GVWR 6100 - 7050
R. GAWR 3300 - 4050
R. Spring Rates 3500 - 4220
8.8 - 9.75 R. Axle
Frames may also vary as Ford has different thickness sections they use on different GVWR Trucks.
02-13-2017, 10:01 PM
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Gene K
You are the only one who is half way getting it
As in spring rates and rear end size
I do go over when I tow my tractor but I tow less than 10 miles from home on country roads and on a properly sized trailer with tandem brakes I have Helwig overload springs and tow in 4th gear manual mode . I am not say it is right but from a safety stand point
She feels very solid and stops on a dime . No way without trailer brakes though would not even attempt . I just take it easy . But I do live in rural NC we don't even have emissions testing here.
You are the only one who is half way getting it
As in spring rates and rear end size
I do go over when I tow my tractor but I tow less than 10 miles from home on country roads and on a properly sized trailer with tandem brakes I have Helwig overload springs and tow in 4th gear manual mode . I am not say it is right but from a safety stand point
She feels very solid and stops on a dime . No way without trailer brakes though would not even attempt . I just take it easy . But I do live in rural NC we don't even have emissions testing here.