Axel Wrap question...
12-28-2016, 12:31 AM
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Won't disagree with that. As we all have different driving styles, habits and needs, issues like these, surface differently, with different drivers.
And keep in mind, it's possible that you have another issue that can be adding to this.
What suspension or performance mods do you have on your truck?
And keep in mind, it's possible that you have another issue that can be adding to this.
What suspension or performance mods do you have on your truck?
My truck is flawless so far and I'm extremely happy with it. However if I tow the planned trailer I would like to get and this issue arises I will be greatly disappointed. I'm looking to tow no more then in the 7000# range and have studied the limits of these trucks on this forum greatly. I will keep my trailer well within my trucks limits regardless what IT CAN DO lol.
12-28-2016, 01:00 PM
#12
Roadmaster Active suspension is suppose to eliminate Axle wrap. I had them on my 2010 and it did stop the hopping of the rear end when taking off quickly from a stop. I am looking to get another set for my 2013 as I frequently carry a truck camper(1200lbs). https://www.activesuspension.com/
12-30-2016, 01:30 AM
#13
I don't have any and I haven't experienced it personally. I just ran into the topic several times while browsing the forums and it peaked my curiosity as to why? I believe Ford builds the best truck hands down and that issue seems like something that would be addressed by the engineering team seeing as a majority of customers tow something with their trucks.
My truck is flawless so far and I'm extremely happy with it. However if I tow the planned trailer I would like to get and this issue arises I will be greatly disappointed. I'm looking to tow no more then in the 7000# range and have studied the limits of these trucks on this forum greatly. I will keep my trailer well within my trucks limits regardless what IT CAN DO lol.
My truck is flawless so far and I'm extremely happy with it. However if I tow the planned trailer I would like to get and this issue arises I will be greatly disappointed. I'm looking to tow no more then in the 7000# range and have studied the limits of these trucks on this forum greatly. I will keep my trailer well within my trucks limits regardless what IT CAN DO lol.
12-30-2016, 04:40 PM
#14
Axle wrap IS caused by the overloading of the rear leaf springs and nothing clearly illustrates this more that the RAS springs. The RAS springs are a very clever HELPER spring that takes the load off of the rear main springs so that they have more reserve capacity to better control axle wrap.
C'mon guys, the ONLY device under the truck which stops axle wrap is the rear spring. If the spring cannot hold the differential than it rotates. The only reason that the rear springs cannot hold the differential is because they are overloaded either through design (to soft a spring) or loading.
Everyone knows that you can stop axle wrap by adding springs (RAS) in order to support the spring pack or you can install an add-a-leaf kit (beef up the spring pack). You can even use air bags to beef up the spring pack but EVERY solution that you will ever see will have you beef up the spring pack (except ladder bars and slapper bars) so what does that tell you......that the springs are clearly overloaded. There is one exception though and that is shocks. Better shocks go a long way to stopping axle wrap but that is do to the improved dampening...the axle is still trying to rotate.
If you want to eliminate axle wrap and keep a nice soft ride than install ladder bars (this is what I am going to do).
So why do Ford do this? Ford knows that most F150 owners use their trucks to get groceries and for that a nice soft ride is what sells.
C'mon guys, the ONLY device under the truck which stops axle wrap is the rear spring. If the spring cannot hold the differential than it rotates. The only reason that the rear springs cannot hold the differential is because they are overloaded either through design (to soft a spring) or loading.
Everyone knows that you can stop axle wrap by adding springs (RAS) in order to support the spring pack or you can install an add-a-leaf kit (beef up the spring pack). You can even use air bags to beef up the spring pack but EVERY solution that you will ever see will have you beef up the spring pack (except ladder bars and slapper bars) so what does that tell you......that the springs are clearly overloaded. There is one exception though and that is shocks. Better shocks go a long way to stopping axle wrap but that is do to the improved dampening...the axle is still trying to rotate.
If you want to eliminate axle wrap and keep a nice soft ride than install ladder bars (this is what I am going to do).
So why do Ford do this? Ford knows that most F150 owners use their trucks to get groceries and for that a nice soft ride is what sells.
12-30-2016, 04:43 PM
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Axle wrap IS caused by the overloading of the rear leaf springs and nothing clearly illustrates this more that the RAS springs. The RAS springs are a very clever HELPER spring that takes the load off of the rear main springs so that they have more reserve capacity to better control axle wrap.
C'mon guys, the ONLY device under the truck which stops axle wrap is the rear spring. If the spring cannot hold the differential than it rotates. The only reason that the rear springs cannot hold the differential is because they are overloaded either through design (to soft a spring) or loading.
Everyone knows that you can stop axle wrap by adding springs (RAS) in order to support the spring pack or you can install an add-a-leaf kit (beef up the spring pack). You can even use air bags to beef up the spring pack but EVERY solution that you will ever see will have you beef up the spring pack (except ladder bars and slapper bars) so what does that tell you......that the springs are clearly overloaded. There is one exception though and that is shocks. Better shocks go a long way to stopping axle wrap but that is do to the improved dampening...the axle is still trying to rotate.
If you want to eliminate axle wrap and keep a nice soft ride than install ladder bars (this is what I am going to do).
So why do Ford do this? Ford knows that most F150 owners use their trucks to get groceries and for that a nice soft ride is what sells.
C'mon guys, the ONLY device under the truck which stops axle wrap is the rear spring. If the spring cannot hold the differential than it rotates. The only reason that the rear springs cannot hold the differential is because they are overloaded either through design (to soft a spring) or loading.
Everyone knows that you can stop axle wrap by adding springs (RAS) in order to support the spring pack or you can install an add-a-leaf kit (beef up the spring pack). You can even use air bags to beef up the spring pack but EVERY solution that you will ever see will have you beef up the spring pack (except ladder bars and slapper bars) so what does that tell you......that the springs are clearly overloaded. There is one exception though and that is shocks. Better shocks go a long way to stopping axle wrap but that is do to the improved dampening...the axle is still trying to rotate.
If you want to eliminate axle wrap and keep a nice soft ride than install ladder bars (this is what I am going to do).
So why do Ford do this? Ford knows that most F150 owners use their trucks to get groceries and for that a nice soft ride is what sells.
12-30-2016, 06:45 PM
#16
Senior Member
Axle wrap IS caused by the overloading of the rear leaf springs and nothing clearly illustrates this more that the RAS springs. The RAS springs are a very clever HELPER spring that takes the load off of the rear main springs so that they have more reserve capacity to better control axle wrap.
C'mon guys, the ONLY device under the truck which stops axle wrap is the rear spring. If the spring cannot hold the differential than it rotates. The only reason that the rear springs cannot hold the differential is because they are overloaded either through design (to soft a spring) or loading.
Everyone knows that you can stop axle wrap by adding springs (RAS) in order to support the spring pack or you can install an add-a-leaf kit (beef up the spring pack). You can even use air bags to beef up the spring pack but EVERY solution that you will ever see will have you beef up the spring pack (except ladder bars and slapper bars) so what does that tell you......that the springs are clearly overloaded. There is one exception though and that is shocks. Better shocks go a long way to stopping axle wrap but that is do to the improved dampening...the axle is still trying to rotate.
If you want to eliminate axle wrap and keep a nice soft ride than install ladder bars (this is what I am going to do).
So why do Ford do this? Ford knows that most F150 owners use their trucks to get groceries and for that a nice soft ride is what sells.
C'mon guys, the ONLY device under the truck which stops axle wrap is the rear spring. If the spring cannot hold the differential than it rotates. The only reason that the rear springs cannot hold the differential is because they are overloaded either through design (to soft a spring) or loading.
Everyone knows that you can stop axle wrap by adding springs (RAS) in order to support the spring pack or you can install an add-a-leaf kit (beef up the spring pack). You can even use air bags to beef up the spring pack but EVERY solution that you will ever see will have you beef up the spring pack (except ladder bars and slapper bars) so what does that tell you......that the springs are clearly overloaded. There is one exception though and that is shocks. Better shocks go a long way to stopping axle wrap but that is do to the improved dampening...the axle is still trying to rotate.
If you want to eliminate axle wrap and keep a nice soft ride than install ladder bars (this is what I am going to do).
So why do Ford do this? Ford knows that most F150 owners use their trucks to get groceries and for that a nice soft ride is what sells.
Overloading the springs (weight) does not cause axle wrap. Rotational loading is what is causing the wrap. Our trucks and most leaf sprung vehicles were not designed to see large rotational loads with low traction.
Heavier springs, while eliminating the issue, are not a good fix. The fact that we can run softer springs and still carry a heavy load is fantastic. The older trucks that could carry the same load would ride like dump trucks.
This is not a design flaw but a result of having your weight carrying suspension perform multiple jobs. When using leafs they must carry the load (weight load) stop side movement (torsional load) and stop the axle from rotating (rotational load). That is a lot to ask from one component.
However leaf springs are great for carrying heavy loads, better than coils, which is why most trucks use them. Coils sprung suspension only carry the weight load, nothing else. Multiple suspension points do the rest of the work and eliminate axle wrap entirely. The control arms eliminate the possibility of axle wrap. Most cars and Dodge trucks utilize this style of rear suspension.
Your last line, which I bolded, is completely off base. Ford and other truck designers use this system because it is best for carrying heavy loads. Your line would be apt for the Dodge trucks that use coils in the rear. They are not well suited for carrying heavy loads. This is why they do not use coils in their 3/4 and 1 ton trucks.
FWIW even heavy one ton springs are susceptible to axle wrap, especially with the big torque of a diesel engine.
To clarify for the OP, trailering should not give you any axle wrap symptoms. While some wrap may occur during acceleration, it should not result in any symptoms. Essentially, if it does occur you will not know it and it will not result in any long term ill effects.
Generally it will be prominent in low traction/high load situations. Like off roading in sand or heavy snow. I went through during moose hunting this year when trying to go down a logging road that had not been plowed. It had about a foot of heavy and partially frozen snow. This meant I had to dig my way through it. I would sometimes get some hopping in the rear axle. I would back off the gas, let things settle and lean back into the go pedal slowly. This was the direct result of low traction and high load combined with too much power. This would cause an axle wrap and the resulting axle hop.
When trailering, you would not see this unless you are spinning the tires with a trailer in tow
Last edited by Dirttracker18; 12-30-2016 at 06:54 PM.
12-30-2016, 08:55 PM
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
You are misunderstanding the issue.
Overloading the springs (weight) does not cause axle wrap. Rotational loading is what is causing the wrap. Our trucks and most leaf sprung vehicles were not designed to see large rotational loads with low traction.
Heavier springs, while eliminating the issue, are not a good fix. The fact that we can run softer springs and still carry a heavy load is fantastic. The older trucks that could carry the same load would ride like dump trucks.
This is not a design flaw but a result of having your weight carrying suspension perform multiple jobs. When using leafs they must carry the load (weight load) stop side movement (torsional load) and stop the axle from rotating (rotational load). That is a lot to ask from one component.
However leaf springs are great for carrying heavy loads, better than coils, which is why most trucks use them. Coils sprung suspension only carry the weight load, nothing else. Multiple suspension points do the rest of the work and eliminate axle wrap entirely. The control arms eliminate the possibility of axle wrap. Most cars and Dodge trucks utilize this style of rear suspension.
Your last line, which I bolded, is completely off base. Ford and other truck designers use this system because it is best for carrying heavy loads. Your line would be apt for the Dodge trucks that use coils in the rear. They are not well suited for carrying heavy loads. This is why they do not use coils in their 3/4 and 1 ton trucks.
FWIW even heavy one ton springs are susceptible to axle wrap, especially with the big torque of a diesel engine.
To clarify for the OP, trailering should not give you any axle wrap symptoms. While some wrap may occur during acceleration, it should not result in any symptoms. Essentially, if it does occur you will not know it and it will not result in any long term ill effects.
Generally it will be prominent in low traction/high load situations. Like off roading in sand or heavy snow. I went through during moose hunting this year when trying to go down a logging road that had not been plowed. It had about a foot of heavy and partially frozen snow. This meant I had to dig my way through it. I would sometimes get some hopping in the rear axle. I would back off the gas, let things settle and lean back into the go pedal slowly. This was the direct result of low traction and high load combined with too much power. This would cause an axle wrap and the resulting axle hop.
When trailering, you would not see this unless you are spinning the tires with a trailer in tow
12-30-2016, 11:42 PM
#18
I do experience axle wrap and it is DEFINITELY worse when the truck is loaded (towing 6000 lbs) and you CANNOT separate vertical loading of the spring from the rotational loading placed upon the spring. It absolutely impossible and any 2nd year college mechanics text will tell you this.
You guys are confusing the total load (torque + vertical weight) on the spring with the vertical load only. You have to look at both as a form of load. Look at it this way. As the load on the truck increases (vertical load) the ability of the spring to stop axle wrap decreases but with any luck the spring isn't overloaded yet, it is still supporting the vertical load and looking good. When you step on the gas the springs cannot support the forces of the combined vertical weight and the applied torque and the differential rotates due to the overloading of the springs. Look at it another way. It the springs weren't overloaded and they maintained thier position than there wouldn't be any axle wrap....The springs MUST be overloaded for axle wrap to occur.
Ford deliberately installs week springs in their F150 because they want good ride qualities and because they know that your average F150 owner uses it more for groceries than anything.
I did own a 3500 diesel dually with 4 full doors and an 8 foot box. Axle wrap my ***. You have no idea what you are talking about.
You guys are confusing the total load (torque + vertical weight) on the spring with the vertical load only. You have to look at both as a form of load. Look at it this way. As the load on the truck increases (vertical load) the ability of the spring to stop axle wrap decreases but with any luck the spring isn't overloaded yet, it is still supporting the vertical load and looking good. When you step on the gas the springs cannot support the forces of the combined vertical weight and the applied torque and the differential rotates due to the overloading of the springs. Look at it another way. It the springs weren't overloaded and they maintained thier position than there wouldn't be any axle wrap....The springs MUST be overloaded for axle wrap to occur.
Ford deliberately installs week springs in their F150 because they want good ride qualities and because they know that your average F150 owner uses it more for groceries than anything.
I did own a 3500 diesel dually with 4 full doors and an 8 foot box. Axle wrap my ***. You have no idea what you are talking about.
12-31-2016, 12:59 PM
#19
Too much arguing from people who "think" they know what they're talking about. I'm out.
12-31-2016, 06:58 PM
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I just need to get a trailer, load it up appropriately within the trucks recommend capacities and see for myself. I just can't fathom an engineering flaw like that from a company that basically survives off sales of trucks and utility vehicles.
