Power Loss and CEL
12-18-2011, 02:13 AM
#1
Power Loss and CEL
Let me get a few things straight up front before I tell my story.
1) I really love my 2011 EB and am not going to trade it due to this issue,nor do I think all EB's are a problem waiting to happen,that Ford has sold us a grenade wrapped in marketing hype,etc,etc.
2)While I think this issue is discomforting,I think believe there is a solution to it and I am willing to follow this path to find out for myself and others what the solution may be.
Now the story,as best as I remember:
Going to dinner with the wife. Head down the off ramp on to the highway at about 40% throttle, letting the turbos spool up. Decided to drop the hammer and pushed the pedal to the floor. Tranny drops all the way to 3rd (not sure where it was,maybe 5th?) and the motor starts screaming at about 5300 rpm. No power, forward momentum slows,engine still screaming. Wife says something like " What the heck?"
Back off the throttle to let engine up shift and when I push back into the throttle, here comes the shutter and the flashing CEL light. Whole truck is shaking like I have a blown out tire when I give it gas, when I back off it goes away. I tell my wife " I've read about this happening and grab my cell phone and start filming the flashing check engine light and then rest the phone on the wheel so the the vibration is transferred to the camera(very obvious in the video). Probably could have done a better job of fliming, but this all took place in a short period of time.
There was no traffic bearing down on me and there was another exit close to the one I entered the freeway from, so i pulled off, got to a safe spot and shut off the ignition. Waited a minute and restarted, then headed back towards the highway. On the way back on to the highway i tried to get the issue to repeat itself, and it down shifted into 3rd again screaming,but this time it pulled well, then grabbed another gear and away we went.
Thoughts: I think this issue could be transmission or engine related. I am not an engineer, so I am not going to argue either point,rather just postulate some theories.
The behavior reminds me fo blowing a down shift when riding a road race motorcycle on a track. In those instances you end up in a gear too low for the corner your in and the engine is well into the redline and is screaming its lungs but not making any power. In those cases, you pull the clutch in quickly and shift up.
1) Transmission theory: The transmission shifts down too far,and some safety circuit tells the tranny to disengage the torque converter. Lifting off the throttle lets the tranny up shift and begin to re-engage the TC, but the electronics systems are now in alert mode with the CEL flashing and the TC engages and dis-engages rapidly,causing the shutter. This is only a theory, so please treat it accordingly.
2) Engine theory: As been stated previously,it could be a waste gate solenoid not operating (hence the high RPMs with no turbo boost), or some of the other mentioned issues (coil packs, cracked spark plugs,etc)
Neither of these 2 theories fully explains the behavior, but like most I am grasping at straws.
Since I have the video I will show it to my dealers service manager, along with the threads from this forum that discuss this issue as reported by other members.
I have had this happen twice while I have owned the truck (4500miles). In the first instance I attributed it to traction loss on slick roads during a rain storm, and the other happened briefly will towing a 3500# load. Neither the CEL nor the shutter happened during the previous instances.
I have not lost confidence in the truck and as previously stated, I am not going to sell it,trade it,set it on fire, etc, but I would like to find out what is going on. One thing that concerns me is the shutter.
Lets say for instance that the powertrain is "protecting" itself during these situations but a vibration as extreme as that can't be good for the drive train and I am hoping no serious damage has been done.
As I get information I will pass it along. I am not trying to start an EB vs 5.0 thread or anything else of that nature, so please keep that in mind when replying.
1) I really love my 2011 EB and am not going to trade it due to this issue,nor do I think all EB's are a problem waiting to happen,that Ford has sold us a grenade wrapped in marketing hype,etc,etc.
2)While I think this issue is discomforting,I think believe there is a solution to it and I am willing to follow this path to find out for myself and others what the solution may be.
Now the story,as best as I remember:
Going to dinner with the wife. Head down the off ramp on to the highway at about 40% throttle, letting the turbos spool up. Decided to drop the hammer and pushed the pedal to the floor. Tranny drops all the way to 3rd (not sure where it was,maybe 5th?) and the motor starts screaming at about 5300 rpm. No power, forward momentum slows,engine still screaming. Wife says something like " What the heck?"
Back off the throttle to let engine up shift and when I push back into the throttle, here comes the shutter and the flashing CEL light. Whole truck is shaking like I have a blown out tire when I give it gas, when I back off it goes away. I tell my wife " I've read about this happening and grab my cell phone and start filming the flashing check engine light and then rest the phone on the wheel so the the vibration is transferred to the camera(very obvious in the video). Probably could have done a better job of fliming, but this all took place in a short period of time.
There was no traffic bearing down on me and there was another exit close to the one I entered the freeway from, so i pulled off, got to a safe spot and shut off the ignition. Waited a minute and restarted, then headed back towards the highway. On the way back on to the highway i tried to get the issue to repeat itself, and it down shifted into 3rd again screaming,but this time it pulled well, then grabbed another gear and away we went.
Thoughts: I think this issue could be transmission or engine related. I am not an engineer, so I am not going to argue either point,rather just postulate some theories.
The behavior reminds me fo blowing a down shift when riding a road race motorcycle on a track. In those instances you end up in a gear too low for the corner your in and the engine is well into the redline and is screaming its lungs but not making any power. In those cases, you pull the clutch in quickly and shift up.
1) Transmission theory: The transmission shifts down too far,and some safety circuit tells the tranny to disengage the torque converter. Lifting off the throttle lets the tranny up shift and begin to re-engage the TC, but the electronics systems are now in alert mode with the CEL flashing and the TC engages and dis-engages rapidly,causing the shutter. This is only a theory, so please treat it accordingly.
2) Engine theory: As been stated previously,it could be a waste gate solenoid not operating (hence the high RPMs with no turbo boost), or some of the other mentioned issues (coil packs, cracked spark plugs,etc)
Neither of these 2 theories fully explains the behavior, but like most I am grasping at straws.
Since I have the video I will show it to my dealers service manager, along with the threads from this forum that discuss this issue as reported by other members.
I have had this happen twice while I have owned the truck (4500miles). In the first instance I attributed it to traction loss on slick roads during a rain storm, and the other happened briefly will towing a 3500# load. Neither the CEL nor the shutter happened during the previous instances.
I have not lost confidence in the truck and as previously stated, I am not going to sell it,trade it,set it on fire, etc, but I would like to find out what is going on. One thing that concerns me is the shutter.
Lets say for instance that the powertrain is "protecting" itself during these situations but a vibration as extreme as that can't be good for the drive train and I am hoping no serious damage has been done.
As I get information I will pass it along. I am not trying to start an EB vs 5.0 thread or anything else of that nature, so please keep that in mind when replying.
12-18-2011, 06:05 AM
#2
Eco-5.0-Eco again
Your going to get a lot of responses that have nothing to do with this problem; fuel octane, "turbo motor", traction control, etc...
I went through this the other day and pretty much narrowed it down to the rev limiter built into all newer ECMs. I floored it the other day and the transmission kicked down 2 gears, the rev limiter kicked in and cut the fuel and spark....the engine never recovered. I had to drift (wouldn't go past 30 mph) to the shoulder and restart the engine before all cylinders started firing again. I went to the dealer just to document the issue and spoke to a "field engineer". We all agreed that since the rev limiter is a safety feature and did what it was supposed to do...there were no codes thrown or stored. Supposedly the "field engineer" was going to look into this...(I doubt it until someone is killed or injured). The CEL flashing is a sign that the rev limiter is activated BTW.
Did your engine recover without having to restart it? Mine did not, stayed limp until a restart...
And for those that don't know what a "rev limiter" is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redline
I went through this the other day and pretty much narrowed it down to the rev limiter built into all newer ECMs. I floored it the other day and the transmission kicked down 2 gears, the rev limiter kicked in and cut the fuel and spark....the engine never recovered. I had to drift (wouldn't go past 30 mph) to the shoulder and restart the engine before all cylinders started firing again. I went to the dealer just to document the issue and spoke to a "field engineer". We all agreed that since the rev limiter is a safety feature and did what it was supposed to do...there were no codes thrown or stored. Supposedly the "field engineer" was going to look into this...(I doubt it until someone is killed or injured). The CEL flashing is a sign that the rev limiter is activated BTW.
Did your engine recover without having to restart it? Mine did not, stayed limp until a restart...
And for those that don't know what a "rev limiter" is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redline
Last edited by BlueFlameMetallicFX4; 12-18-2011 at 06:21 AM.
12-18-2011, 08:06 AM
#3
I don't know about the cel and misfire part but i do know about ford trannies getting lost when looking for a gear.All of the electronic trannies I have had from ford at certian times will get lost and just over rev and bang when they find a gear.
1990,1996,2001 taurus's 04 lariat 4x4 08 ranger 4x4 08 fusion 11 fusion 11 fx4 eco. They would all hit the rev limiter every so often when you nailed them . Worst would usually be if you came to red light and were just about stopped and hit it hard. it was as if it was between 2 gears and didn't know where to go.
I wonder if it isn't programed to go to fail safe mode a little to quick. Just my thoughts though. I just try not to have to nail it because that little lift on the gas while looking for traffic could be just enough to make it lose its gear and when you nail it it doesn't know what gear to be in.
Steve
1990,1996,2001 taurus's 04 lariat 4x4 08 ranger 4x4 08 fusion 11 fusion 11 fx4 eco. They would all hit the rev limiter every so often when you nailed them . Worst would usually be if you came to red light and were just about stopped and hit it hard. it was as if it was between 2 gears and didn't know where to go.
I wonder if it isn't programed to go to fail safe mode a little to quick. Just my thoughts though. I just try not to have to nail it because that little lift on the gas while looking for traffic could be just enough to make it lose its gear and when you nail it it doesn't know what gear to be in.
Steve
12-18-2011, 10:06 AM
#4
Senior Member
I've had/driven many vehicles that cut fuel when you hit the rev limiter and/or the speed limiter. They have all recovered without issue.
12-18-2011, 10:10 AM
#5
Senior Member
A rev limiter will only shut you down temp. and the engine will continue to run after its below a set rpm. You should not have to come to a complete stop and restart your engine. If it is the rev limiter that caused it to die not very smart enigneering on fords part and could result in a dangerous accident.
12-18-2011, 10:46 AM
#6
Eco-5.0-Eco again
A rev limiter will only shut you down temp. and the engine will continue to run after its below a set rpm. You should not have to come to a complete stop and restart your engine. If it is the rev limiter that caused it to die not very smart enigneering on fords part and could result in a dangerous accident.
12-18-2011, 11:19 AM
#7
Your going to get a lot of responses that have nothing to do with this problem; fuel octane, "turbo motor", traction control, etc...
I went through this the other day and pretty much narrowed it down to the rev limiter built into all newer ECMs. I floored it the other day and the transmission kicked down 2 gears, the rev limiter kicked in and cut the fuel and spark....the engine never recovered. I had to drift (wouldn't go past 30 mph) to the shoulder and restart the engine before all cylinders started firing again. I went to the dealer just to document the issue and spoke to a "field engineer". We all agreed that since the rev limiter is a safety feature and did what it was supposed to do...there were no codes thrown or stored. Supposedly the "field engineer" was going to look into this...(I doubt it until someone is killed or injured). The CEL flashing is a sign that the rev limiter is activated BTW.
Did your engine recover without having to restart it? Mine did not, stayed limp until a restart...
And for those that don't know what a "rev limiter" is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redline
I went through this the other day and pretty much narrowed it down to the rev limiter built into all newer ECMs. I floored it the other day and the transmission kicked down 2 gears, the rev limiter kicked in and cut the fuel and spark....the engine never recovered. I had to drift (wouldn't go past 30 mph) to the shoulder and restart the engine before all cylinders started firing again. I went to the dealer just to document the issue and spoke to a "field engineer". We all agreed that since the rev limiter is a safety feature and did what it was supposed to do...there were no codes thrown or stored. Supposedly the "field engineer" was going to look into this...(I doubt it until someone is killed or injured). The CEL flashing is a sign that the rev limiter is activated BTW.
Did your engine recover without having to restart it? Mine did not, stayed limp until a restart...
And for those that don't know what a "rev limiter" is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redline
Thank you for this information. This makes absolute sense and like you I had to pull over and restart (partly since reading this forum I knew that would most likely cure the problem).
If this is the culprit (and after reading your response is now the most likely candidate) then falls into the design or engineering flaw category.
Allowing the transmission to kick down that far is something that is in the hardware (powertrain system) not in the software (operator). If it was a manual tranny and I threw it from 5th to 3rd, well thats my fault. But in this case you would think that the system would not allow the tranny to down shift far enough to hit redline (where there is no power to be found anyway) and cause the engine to go into limp mode, both negative outcomes.
I will take the take the truck in on monday and get everything documented and see where it goes from there.
Thanks for your feedback BFM
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12-18-2011, 11:29 AM
#8
I don't know about the cel and misfire part but i do know about ford trannies getting lost when looking for a gear.All of the electronic trannies I have had from ford at certian times will get lost and just over rev and bang when they find a gear.
1990,1996,2001 taurus's 04 lariat 4x4 08 ranger 4x4 08 fusion 11 fusion 11 fx4 eco. They would all hit the rev limiter every so often when you nailed them . Worst would usually be if you came to red light and were just about stopped and hit it hard. it was as if it was between 2 gears and didn't know where to go.
I wonder if it isn't programed to go to fail safe mode a little to quick. Just my thoughts though. I just try not to have to nail it because that little lift on the gas while looking for traffic could be just enough to make it lose its gear and when you nail it it doesn't know what gear to be in.
Steve
1990,1996,2001 taurus's 04 lariat 4x4 08 ranger 4x4 08 fusion 11 fusion 11 fx4 eco. They would all hit the rev limiter every so often when you nailed them . Worst would usually be if you came to red light and were just about stopped and hit it hard. it was as if it was between 2 gears and didn't know where to go.
I wonder if it isn't programed to go to fail safe mode a little to quick. Just my thoughts though. I just try not to have to nail it because that little lift on the gas while looking for traffic could be just enough to make it lose its gear and when you nail it it doesn't know what gear to be in.
Steve
Last edited by Graygoat657; 12-18-2011 at 11:31 AM.
12-18-2011, 01:37 PM
#9
Senior Member
a flashing cel is a right-now misfire over a certain count. A rev limiter does not cause a misfire situation, ever. I still think this is a trans issue in accordance with torque management system that over exaggerates the situation and employs a limp-mode, imho.
12-18-2011, 03:18 PM
#10
Eco-5.0-Eco again
A flashing CEL also means the rev limiter has been activated...been down this road plenty of times in the Mustang Gt and Lightning. If there was a misfire, a code would have been stored. There were no codes, hence the rev limiter...
The "theories" get more entertaining by the moment.
The "theories" get more entertaining by the moment.