Definitive Full Race Motorsports Eco-Boost Thread
07-19-2013, 10:28 PM
#111
Junior Member
07-26-2013, 11:29 AM
#113
Got up early this morning to bang this one out… its gonna get long.
Stock turbos Intake: a few people were interested in what the intake can do beyond a drop-in air filter, especially after seeing big power claims from advertisements. We dyno tested 2 intakes on a 2012 ecoboost F150 and saw that the turbos were able to spool ~200rpm earlier when a dual filter element was used vs common drop-in filter. We did not see any topend power gains due to sucking in hot “radiator outflow air” from the engine bay, on a stationary dyno and heatsoaked room. Interesting to see there is room for improvement on stock turbo twin filter divorced intake setups by deleting the 2->1 merge by the airbox..our next round of prototypes is in the works
EFR single turbo kit: When Full-Race started development on the F150 3.5L EcoBoost single turbo kit, we set out to improve the truck’s power without sacrificing all-around ‘daily driver’ performance.
As of this writing our team has amassed hundreds of hours driving and tuning the engine with the single turbo. The truck’s had 4 different turbo setups and Black Market Tuning (our calibrator partners) has had it on the dyno for over a dozen extended tuning sessions. Specs remain mostly the same: powertrain is still 100% stock from engine to fuel system to transmission. Modifications are: Full-Race CAC, 3” resonated exhaust, aluminum charge pipes and Full-Race single turbo kit. To purposely keep numbers conservative, fuel is 91 octane pumpgas only for all initial calibrations and testing (no water/meth yet), the downpipe currently has a high-flow cat and we retained the stock airbox with drop-in air filter. We will test the effects of modifying the airbox and removing the cat in the future
We’ve been having a lot of fun on the 100% stock fuel system and even though our calibration is not yet finished this truck LOVES the new turbo. Per our quarterly contract schedule with Ford, the Freak0Boost article #6 will be posted online in August. That will have our detailed info for the final kit spec, datalogs, dyno charts and the kit timeline. Ford is pleased with our meeting the commitments and deadlines, we are now talking about our 2014 and 2015 project builds. Tuning the PCM still remains the most difficult piece of the puzzle: SCT software works great for stock turbos and basic mods but is not yet 100% for total control of the engine. Don’t get me wrong – it’s the best option out, and we couldn’t be tuning this engine without them, but this week alone we spent 11 hours on just SCT development and are waiting on some more things from them in order to continue the calibrations (I am surprised some of the issues we are running into are not being talked about on the forum). The bigger injectors haven’t arrived yet so tuning them is still a couple weeks out. Please realize this is actually “fast” for development curves. The Audi/vw/mazdaspeed community has been begging for years for upgraded GDI injectors, and the F150 ecoboost will be getting them first… this is a marathon, not a sprint. #justsayin
borgwarner has a nifty webpage app that basically calculates the maximum HP and TQ based on inputs such as boost, VE, compressor map, etc. take a look here for the 7064 setup weve been running (note: 7163 compmap is not online yet)
BorgWarner Matchbot: Full-Race Single Turbo EFR7064 twinscroll on 3.5L Ecoboost Engine
A customer recently sent an email saying “SHUT UP, AND TAKE MY MONEY ALREADY” then someone else posts on our FB page “build the kit all y'all do is talk” ... obviously there’s excitement and interest but we are not going to prematurely release this turbo kit without first successfully meeting our goals. I try not to blab on forums, and only post if I can contribute something worth people’s attention.. Dyno data from the old bigger turbo is below
Test 1: Bone Stock F150 EB with tune (red line) VS Full-Race single turbo kit, using big EFR, intercooler, exhaust (blue line)
Let’s start by comparing a stock 2011 FX4 with 91 octane tune to the freakoboost. The stock twinturbos are “all-in” @18psi. The single turbo with the “big” EFR7064 0.92 a/r twinscroll turbo is only @13psi boost. Easy to see the larger more efficient EFR turbo makes more power from idle->5500rpm and does this at less boost.
Note: The twinscroll EFR7064 is considered an excellent turbo with great torque, early spool and a broad powerband. Basically a 50 trim T3/T4 on steroids for any of you turboheads out there. Easy to see the single turbo truck is much faster in all regards than a stock ecoboost with a tune, however the fuel becomes our limiting factor near 6000rpm
Test 2: F150 EB with FR CAC, Exhaust, Intake, 91 Octane tune (green line) VS Full-Race single turbo kit, using big EFR, intercooler, exhaust (blue line)
lets do this same comparison but add a Full-Race Intercooler and 3” exhaust to the stock ecoboost truck. Things get really interesting:
Suddenly, once the tiny stock twins can breathe they show their advantage: a sizeable midrange bump. If you trailer, off-road, or like flooring it at stop signs this area is what motivates a 6000lb truck and makes a 3.5L turbo-V6 feel like a big displacement V8. When you stab the throttle from a dig the smaller turbos are always in boost while the larger 0.92 a/r turbo has less “grunt” then takes off like a rocket. The increased top end airflow makes it a faster truck overall with huge power gains from 3000rpm on. BUT next time you drive, honestly pay attention at how much time do you spend from 3000rpm->redline? Watch the tach and report back (dedicated drag racers like brian slow, and anyone who launches off the brake or a TC with high rpm stall please ignore, big turbos still apply
)
3. same comparison as above - I shaded this area green to drive the point home:
Weve had a lot of happy customers with our intercooler and exhaust upgrades on stock turbo trucks, this green area is why – 500wtq by 2700rpm is frickin awesome!! With big 33” All-Terrain tires on tall 3.55 gears the big turbo’s loss of torque from 2400-3000rpm was far more noticeable in the driver’s seat than a dyno chart could convey -- despite the kick-in-the-pants up top
Yes that’s exactly whats happening. the big 0.92 a/r EFR at 13psi does what the stock twins with 3” exhaust and intercooler do “all-in” at full boost. However there is a small lag penalty on this 0.92 a/r.
Great post, totally agree.
Stock turbos Intake: a few people were interested in what the intake can do beyond a drop-in air filter, especially after seeing big power claims from advertisements. We dyno tested 2 intakes on a 2012 ecoboost F150 and saw that the turbos were able to spool ~200rpm earlier when a dual filter element was used vs common drop-in filter. We did not see any topend power gains due to sucking in hot “radiator outflow air” from the engine bay, on a stationary dyno and heatsoaked room. Interesting to see there is room for improvement on stock turbo twin filter divorced intake setups by deleting the 2->1 merge by the airbox..our next round of prototypes is in the works
As of this writing our team has amassed hundreds of hours driving and tuning the engine with the single turbo. The truck’s had 4 different turbo setups and Black Market Tuning (our calibrator partners) has had it on the dyno for over a dozen extended tuning sessions. Specs remain mostly the same: powertrain is still 100% stock from engine to fuel system to transmission. Modifications are: Full-Race CAC, 3” resonated exhaust, aluminum charge pipes and Full-Race single turbo kit. To purposely keep numbers conservative, fuel is 91 octane pumpgas only for all initial calibrations and testing (no water/meth yet), the downpipe currently has a high-flow cat and we retained the stock airbox with drop-in air filter. We will test the effects of modifying the airbox and removing the cat in the future
We’ve been having a lot of fun on the 100% stock fuel system and even though our calibration is not yet finished this truck LOVES the new turbo. Per our quarterly contract schedule with Ford, the Freak0Boost article #6 will be posted online in August. That will have our detailed info for the final kit spec, datalogs, dyno charts and the kit timeline. Ford is pleased with our meeting the commitments and deadlines, we are now talking about our 2014 and 2015 project builds. Tuning the PCM still remains the most difficult piece of the puzzle: SCT software works great for stock turbos and basic mods but is not yet 100% for total control of the engine. Don’t get me wrong – it’s the best option out, and we couldn’t be tuning this engine without them, but this week alone we spent 11 hours on just SCT development and are waiting on some more things from them in order to continue the calibrations (I am surprised some of the issues we are running into are not being talked about on the forum). The bigger injectors haven’t arrived yet so tuning them is still a couple weeks out. Please realize this is actually “fast” for development curves. The Audi/vw/mazdaspeed community has been begging for years for upgraded GDI injectors, and the F150 ecoboost will be getting them first… this is a marathon, not a sprint. #justsayin
a high performance engine that has >100% Volumetric Efficiency, and it produces 500 hp at WOT. Now, what happens if you double atmospheric pressure? If you answered, "the power will double", then we agree. Using density=PV/RT, so if you double the pressure, the density doubles, the mass flow rate doubles, and the power doubles...but it still has 100% VE. So, you have doubled the pressure in the intake manifold but you have not added any restriction. You also have doubled the pressure on the exhaust side.
borgwarner has a nifty webpage app that basically calculates the maximum HP and TQ based on inputs such as boost, VE, compressor map, etc. take a look here for the 7064 setup weve been running (note: 7163 compmap is not online yet)
BorgWarner Matchbot: Full-Race Single Turbo EFR7064 twinscroll on 3.5L Ecoboost Engine
A customer recently sent an email saying “SHUT UP, AND TAKE MY MONEY ALREADY” then someone else posts on our FB page “build the kit all y'all do is talk” ... obviously there’s excitement and interest but we are not going to prematurely release this turbo kit without first successfully meeting our goals. I try not to blab on forums, and only post if I can contribute something worth people’s attention.. Dyno data from the old bigger turbo is below
Test 1: Bone Stock F150 EB with tune (red line) VS Full-Race single turbo kit, using big EFR, intercooler, exhaust (blue line)
Let’s start by comparing a stock 2011 FX4 with 91 octane tune to the freakoboost. The stock twinturbos are “all-in” @18psi. The single turbo with the “big” EFR7064 0.92 a/r twinscroll turbo is only @13psi boost. Easy to see the larger more efficient EFR turbo makes more power from idle->5500rpm and does this at less boost.
Note: The twinscroll EFR7064 is considered an excellent turbo with great torque, early spool and a broad powerband. Basically a 50 trim T3/T4 on steroids for any of you turboheads out there. Easy to see the single turbo truck is much faster in all regards than a stock ecoboost with a tune, however the fuel becomes our limiting factor near 6000rpm
Test 2: F150 EB with FR CAC, Exhaust, Intake, 91 Octane tune (green line) VS Full-Race single turbo kit, using big EFR, intercooler, exhaust (blue line)
lets do this same comparison but add a Full-Race Intercooler and 3” exhaust to the stock ecoboost truck. Things get really interesting:
Suddenly, once the tiny stock twins can breathe they show their advantage: a sizeable midrange bump. If you trailer, off-road, or like flooring it at stop signs this area is what motivates a 6000lb truck and makes a 3.5L turbo-V6 feel like a big displacement V8. When you stab the throttle from a dig the smaller turbos are always in boost while the larger 0.92 a/r turbo has less “grunt” then takes off like a rocket. The increased top end airflow makes it a faster truck overall with huge power gains from 3000rpm on. BUT next time you drive, honestly pay attention at how much time do you spend from 3000rpm->redline? Watch the tach and report back (dedicated drag racers like brian slow, and anyone who launches off the brake or a TC with high rpm stall please ignore, big turbos still apply
)3. same comparison as above - I shaded this area green to drive the point home:
Weve had a lot of happy customers with our intercooler and exhaust upgrades on stock turbo trucks, this green area is why – 500wtq by 2700rpm is frickin awesome!! With big 33” All-Terrain tires on tall 3.55 gears the big turbo’s loss of torque from 2400-3000rpm was far more noticeable in the driver’s seat than a dyno chart could convey -- despite the kick-in-the-pants up top
Yes that’s exactly whats happening. the big 0.92 a/r EFR at 13psi does what the stock twins with 3” exhaust and intercooler do “all-in” at full boost. However there is a small lag penalty on this 0.92 a/r.
you still want boost to increase the density of the charge… A more efficient compressor will generate boost with less heat, while taking less turbine power to do it. Less turbine shaft power plus a larger turbine generates less exhaust/drive pressure. This reduces pumping losses and increases airflow at the same boost level, increasing power. If you are fuel system limited, you could reduce boost and make the same power.
Last edited by Full-Race Geoff; 07-26-2013 at 04:08 PM.
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07-26-2013, 11:30 AM
#114
Since that time, we started driving the truck everywhere for everything.. trailering the race cars to events, lunchtime transporter, trips to local hardware stores, etc. Watching datalogs to see how the computer responds to our changes. Then we asked some of our knowledgeable OE testdriver friends and a couple F150forums.com members to drive the different setups and use heavy throttle. We told them get into the turbo - take note of what they liked or did not like. All test drivers and everyone on our team agreed unanimously: this trucks hauls the mail *but ANY TURBO LAG IS REALLY NOTICEABLE*. Some vehicles dont mind a little turbo lag, this 6000lb F150 powered by only 3.5L displacement is not one of them. Most aftermarket turbos gain top end HP by sacrificing some bottom end grunt and torque, the key traits that make a full size pickup fun to drive. This reality is lost on internet forum threads when talking about ¼ mile times and big HP numbers - particularly because so few people have modified the ecoboost engines or turbos yet.
Because low rpm TQ is what motivates a big heavy truck, its easy to understand how changing to bigger turbos can lose overall performance even though if truck can go faster in the ¼ mile. We wanted the lowend AND we wanted the topend.. We started looking at the airflow requirements with BW engineers: 20lb/min airflow from the turbo @ 2500rpm engine speed and 35lb/min airflow just past 3000rpm with 60lb/min at full tilt "all-in" is what we targeted.. that is a lot to ask for and no available turbocharger from any mfg, aftermarket or OEM can currently do this.. Fortunately BorgWarner tweaked their 7163 0.80 a/r to work perfectly for the F150 ecoboost application, engineered around maximum TQ and quick throttle response.. (If youre interested, Google “mixed flow turbine” or “MFT” to understand what the difference is from radial to mixed flow -different from the outright HP and lag of traditional aftermarket turbos.)
Note: We can supply the kits with any of the other turbos also, but once you drive the various options – the 7163 is the clear winner and what we are spending the time calibrating for. It’s a 2014 release for BW (they tell us it will be shipping in the fall, Oct timeframe) so there is still a little more wait but this is how we plan to release the kit since we believe it is THE single turbo for the 3.5L trucks.
The low rpm TQ and powerband improvement was massive and the Freakoboost came alive. So far the 7163 is working extremely well on stock fuel at mid boost (~15-16psi for now on the stock fuel system). The performance during trailering, unloaded, transitioning into and out of boost, it all works. This summer temps have been extreme in phoenix. We saw elevated water temps during high load trailering in the 115+F desert heat (anyone in the SW, think the uphill on I-10E from LA to PHX!) so we removed the winch in order to install an external oil cooler at the stock IC's location. Next we are installing a lower temp thermostat as well.
Meth kit is in the truck, just not turned on yet. There is plenty more “safe power” to be had on stock fueling. Adding more fuel will not improve the spool or low rpm torque – the area were focused on most. Once we’re ready to turn up the boost and aim for higher HP levels is when we will add more fuel.
first we really wanted to nail down what the limits are for performance potential with GDI only. In the name of maintaining consistency with all data collected for the last few thousand miles, we are finishing all of our stock fuel system testing and calibrating on pump gas only - since that is what all the other turbos have been tested on. We can make a few more HP at this current boost by dropping the high flow cat and ditching the stock airbox. The lack of fuel is just keeping us from turning the boost way up. SCT’s software is constantly changing and evolving, we are along for the ride. I don’t know how other guys who are using bigger turbos will get around these same issues, interested to see it all unfold over the next few months. Once we get the larger GDI injectors installed, then we have to figure out how to get the SCT flash to control them properly… that’s probably when we will start breaking things (rear axles like brian) and then can play with the meth and maxxing out the turbo. BTW for anyone not familiar with this bosch PCM- it literally takes 16 maps to change spark, there are 34 for boost/throttle, and 6 for Fuel. Then it takes 10-12 minutes to reflash every change we make. this is NOT a fast process or simple engine to tune. I honestly have no idea what most of these guys selling tunes are doing for their calibrations
Sorta yes, sorta no…The papers are signed and the truck is ours for development but we are still in contract for 6 more months. If Ford needs the vehicle for use at any show, event, dealership, etc it has to be able to go within a short notice. Can not risk major damage the engine or trans (but that is why I have the spare motor -just in case)
Editor’s note: Between the abuse dished out from running the new engine unturned briefly, starting from scratch to write the basemaps, the stock cooling system allowing elevated water temps while towing under full boost and WOT in desert heat … and then (2) bad tanks of gas causing knock … our stock longblock 2013 3.5L V6 ecoboost engine has not skipped a beat.
Regardless of all this, the timeline constraint is not us - its BorgWarner who will still be a couple more months on delivering these new EFR 7163 turbos.
A twin turbo setup from Full-Race is going to happen, we had prototypes on display at SEMA and PRI. This is for the high power crowd. Final design kit will probably show up this year at PRI (mayybe sema..) truthfully I expect the twin EFRs will have more lag compared to the 7163, however for someone looking to drag race or make a ton of power and considering a fabricated intake manifold with heavy aux fueling mods – this is the same config that roush runs on the Libra ecoboost motors so it will absolutely rip. IMHO Single turbo will be the way to go for F150s that get driven on the street and really used. Upgraded twins everyone is excited about will be neat too, I have some new versions here in my office to try but they will take a lag hit also (cannot beat the mixed flow turbine)
Thanks
we listened, the 2013 Ebov bungs are at our machine shop getting finished in the next 10-12 days. Ford uses a very strange indexing thread on there, so we were not able to purchase an off-the-shelf tap and run these on our lathe. Had to get a custom live tool made in order to have the alignment tabs and sealing surface perfect.
same as the 2011-2012s – external BOV is actuated by a vacuum signal. Ford uses the electronic version only because it can be quieter. Also - no, the PCM does not care (as long as you keep it plugged in and safely ziptied)
exactly
Id typically agree with you based on the past but the casting and machining quality is decent on these. Another local shop has dyno tested it and they swear they saw gains… we are going to find out and hopefully test around the same time as our injector swap… will be sure to report back with the result. Considering the long term plans we have in store for these trucks I think this will be a more important part in the future
turbo-back downpipes - happening, pics soon.
last – talking about condensation traps. Im surprised how many people have emailed or PMed me asking for us to make one. There are a few ways to go about this, each will have some sort of tradeoff. Less trapping = higher flowing and More trapping = higher restriction or higher volume (more turbo lag). Do you guys really want us working on this? something that would work with the stock IC? FR IC? Both?
edit: longest post, ever. i think i just got carpal tunnel
Because low rpm TQ is what motivates a big heavy truck, its easy to understand how changing to bigger turbos can lose overall performance even though if truck can go faster in the ¼ mile. We wanted the lowend AND we wanted the topend.. We started looking at the airflow requirements with BW engineers: 20lb/min airflow from the turbo @ 2500rpm engine speed and 35lb/min airflow just past 3000rpm with 60lb/min at full tilt "all-in" is what we targeted.. that is a lot to ask for and no available turbocharger from any mfg, aftermarket or OEM can currently do this.. Fortunately BorgWarner tweaked their 7163 0.80 a/r to work perfectly for the F150 ecoboost application, engineered around maximum TQ and quick throttle response.. (If youre interested, Google “mixed flow turbine” or “MFT” to understand what the difference is from radial to mixed flow -different from the outright HP and lag of traditional aftermarket turbos.)
Note: We can supply the kits with any of the other turbos also, but once you drive the various options – the 7163 is the clear winner and what we are spending the time calibrating for. It’s a 2014 release for BW (they tell us it will be shipping in the fall, Oct timeframe) so there is still a little more wait but this is how we plan to release the kit since we believe it is THE single turbo for the 3.5L trucks.
The low rpm TQ and powerband improvement was massive and the Freakoboost came alive. So far the 7163 is working extremely well on stock fuel at mid boost (~15-16psi for now on the stock fuel system). The performance during trailering, unloaded, transitioning into and out of boost, it all works. This summer temps have been extreme in phoenix. We saw elevated water temps during high load trailering in the 115+F desert heat (anyone in the SW, think the uphill on I-10E from LA to PHX!) so we removed the winch in order to install an external oil cooler at the stock IC's location. Next we are installing a lower temp thermostat as well.
Meth kit is in the truck, just not turned on yet. There is plenty more “safe power” to be had on stock fueling. Adding more fuel will not improve the spool or low rpm torque – the area were focused on most. Once we’re ready to turn up the boost and aim for higher HP levels is when we will add more fuel.
Sorta yes, sorta no…The papers are signed and the truck is ours for development but we are still in contract for 6 more months. If Ford needs the vehicle for use at any show, event, dealership, etc it has to be able to go within a short notice. Can not risk major damage the engine or trans (but that is why I have the spare motor -just in case)
Editor’s note: Between the abuse dished out from running the new engine unturned briefly, starting from scratch to write the basemaps, the stock cooling system allowing elevated water temps while towing under full boost and WOT in desert heat … and then (2) bad tanks of gas causing knock … our stock longblock 2013 3.5L V6 ecoboost engine has not skipped a beat.
Regardless of all this, the timeline constraint is not us - its BorgWarner who will still be a couple more months on delivering these new EFR 7163 turbos.
i wish they would have built some of their bad *** manifolds and stayed twins, im guessing they time they had to make it to sema didnt allow that, but they should have plenty of time now. they would be pricy, and untill someone figures out the fuel issue there is no need for it. the stock stuff can max out the fuel pump.
2013 here and i can tell you this... i want all of it but most over all for now I want the new intercooler with the oldschool mechanical bov. a little woosh never hurt noone. Least it isnt an HKS SSQV [IMG]file:///C:\Users\OWNER\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image001.gif[/IMG] Should be ordering an intercooler in the next couple of weeks.
Thanks
we listened, the 2013 Ebov bungs are at our machine shop getting finished in the next 10-12 days. Ford uses a very strange indexing thread on there, so we were not able to purchase an off-the-shelf tap and run these on our lathe. Had to get a custom live tool made in order to have the alignment tabs and sealing surface perfect.
Geoff, how does the bov on the '13 know when to open? I've had mine vented for probably 4k miles so I know it takes very little boost for it to actuate. If you put a FR IC on a '13 and ran a Tial bov would the PCM know something was wrong (stock electronic bov missing?)
turbo-back downpipes - happening, pics soon.
last – talking about condensation traps. Im surprised how many people have emailed or PMed me asking for us to make one. There are a few ways to go about this, each will have some sort of tradeoff. Less trapping = higher flowing and More trapping = higher restriction or higher volume (more turbo lag). Do you guys really want us working on this? something that would work with the stock IC? FR IC? Both?
edit: longest post, ever. i think i just got carpal tunnel
Last edited by Full-Race Geoff; 07-26-2013 at 04:14 PM.
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07-26-2013, 12:15 PM
#115
video next
07-26-2013, 12:28 PM
#117
Senior Member/Vietnam Vet
I experienced a short period of elevated water temps while pulling a 9500 lb fiver up a mountain in Wyoming. Once the climb tapered off and it shifted from 3rd to 4th, the temp came back to normal. I have Max Tow which I believe has a bigger trans oil cooler, but you added an external engine oil cooler as well? Will a 170 degree thermostat make a difference once the water temp goes over 195 or is the idea to keeping from even getting that high?
07-26-2013, 01:34 PM
#119
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Nice Post Geoff... I know over on vortex quite a few of us have luck with using injectors from other DI vag cars. For example the stock vw 2.0TSI can use the injectors from the Audi S3, (same motor larger turbo, larger injectors) as well as using injectors from the S4 3.0 supercharged and RS4... any luck with maybe those crossing platforms?
07-26-2013, 04:01 PM
#120
I experienced a short period of elevated water temps while pulling a 9500 lb fiver up a mountain in Wyoming. Once the climb tapered off and it shifted from 3rd to 4th, the temp came back to normal. I have Max Tow which I believe has a bigger trans oil cooler, but you added an external engine oil cooler as well? Will a 170 degree thermostat make a difference once the water temp goes over 195 or is the idea to keeping from even getting that high?
the OEM ecoboost oil cooler uses engine coolant circulating through a small enclosed heat exchanger. The problem that happens is when your coolant gets HOT, it no longer cools oil - just heats up more. In Wyoming your temps were not as hot as AZ so it got back under control. By change to an air-to-oil cooler it dropped temps a LOT. I expect the 170 tstat will help keep things totally manageable. The next change if necessary is a larger radiator (like a raptor)
ohh you know thats gonna be posted
Nice Post Geoff... I know over on vortex quite a few of us have luck with using injectors from other DI vag cars. For example the stock vw 2.0TSI can use the injectors from the Audi S3, (same motor larger turbo, larger injectors) as well as using injectors from the S4 3.0 supercharged and RS4... any luck with maybe those crossing platforms?
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