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Old 07-24-2014, 12:48 PM   #161
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And that is where when actual auto techs and automotive engineers come in and discuss what is actually happening those wanting to learn can get accurate information. I know how easy it is for the "keyboard" experts to make claims and shout their opinions and assumptions to confuse and muddy the waters, that is why actually seeing first hand the less than ideal way some manufacturers release vehicles is not always the best solution.
I love the backhanded comment so I've got to comment.

When said "auto engineer" can provide evidence that there is indeed a PCV system issue, maybe those of us that don't fall for his sales pitch hook line and sinker will take notice. Then again those that don't or question you are "haters", out to get you, or work for the competition. You've played all that BS here and other places before and it's quite pathetic, actually. Disagreement is perfectly fine. When someone states "facts" and doesn't really back them up that benefits nobody. If asking genuine questions and asking for data "muddies the waters" then too bad. When you state your product does something or there is a defect, it's on you to prove it. Why do you push your product so hard when no other vendor does? Why the constant veiled and blatant ads? No other vendor does this.

The fact is there is no evidence there is a PCV defect. No sludged engines, no high levels of wear metals in oil analyses, no blown seals. All classic symptoms of PCV issues. Just ask Toyota who fought a truly defective PCV system in many of their 4 cylinder engines in the 80's/90's. Just because something is different to your old brain does not mean it is wrong, just that it is different. Suggesting your way is the only way and that the engineers at Ford are wrong is quite conceited. With well over 500k of these engines on the road since mid 2009, if there truly were a PCV defect we'd see it in trade journals, we'd see it in sludge reports, etc. Yet in a properly functioning engine there are none. Used Oil Analyses show Ecoboosts to be in line with other DI engines.

You've claimed that humidity plays no part in the misfire issue and then discount Ford's extensive testing that it is exactly that which causes these issues. That's what they have proved to NHTSA. Those that are interested can read the whole documents here: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs...018-57516P.pdf Whether or not anyone believes that is up to them but that's what is accepted to be the cause by all parties. Given the amount of recalls lately one would think Ford would not lie to the NHTSA.

The fact that you conveniently forget in your shilling for your can is that the free fix from Ford also fixes the issues for many. It is THE solution that they provided to NHTSA. It is the solution that seems to work and is not an aftermarket band-aid from a company with a less than stellar reputation that has a long history of shilling their product in many car forums. Yes, it took them a couple tries to get it right. Your first cans were probably less than stellar too.

It's easy for you to dismiss the Ford fix as a band aid when your "fix" is exactly that as well. But I guess that's OK since you are selling the "problem" and the "solution". Ford dealers sell lots of things, including induction cleanings using chemicals which, in recent developments, Ford says is a "NO NO". They also sell oil additives and other things that are not needed with today's good oil. Doesn't make them any more or less of a solution than selling a catch can. It means they are selling stuff.

We've seen the latest TSB from Ford work. The problems are dramatically lessened (maybe even eradicated) in the trucks that have these parts. That alone is a reason to stick with Ford for the fix, not an aftermarket band aid. Nobody knows what changes the 2015 EB 3.5 has but my hunch it is relatively unchanged form the 2014 which got a few changes.
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Old 07-24-2014, 01:26 PM   #162
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All the hard data anyone could want is out there posted time and again, and the fix is 100% guaranteed to work or $ back. The fact that Ford dealers are successfully installing these on problem trucks with 100% success may not mean anything to you as your only agenda is to disrupt every informative thread on this subject. I have no desire to fight with you, but you wont stop.

The NTSB article you keep throwing out has not corrected the issue, has it.

You were going to contact Rhineland Ford direct as you doubted this....but when given their contact you never followed through and posted the reply from them....so another member posted what he got from them:

Click the image to open in full size.

If you do not believe in it I accept that, don't do it. Your free to do as you you choose to with your own truck. But please stop muddying up the threads for those looking for help and a solution. They have nothing to loose as there is no risk, these are people that are frustrated after visiting the dealer multiple time for the TSB's to address the shudder and misfire, and have had no luck. There are several things to check and address, but bottom line in addition to spark plugs and coils, adding air deflectors to make the CAC less effective is not a solution. Forced induction generates heat, heat is never good, thats why people install larger capacity intercoolers. Why people install cold air intakes to increase performance, exhausts, down pipes, etc. None of those come from the factory yet are hugely popular. After market tunes and on and on. This is to specifically address a common issue, and is not "pushed" on anyone. The information is presented for the owners to make that decision....and if I was just a "sales Pitchman" as you claim, we manufacture 27 different products from super chargers systems, turbo systems, and tons of other popular products and I dont push a one.

So I ask again, please stop this non stop war your waging. Let the members decide and report back their personal experiences. (except you attack and gang up on those that do come in and report their findings after doing the PCV system fix creating even more tension and drama).

Lets just please keep these threads on topic, share actual results, and if any of these members that have installed the fix find it did NOT do as described, then there would be legitimate reason to raise an argument.

This is NOT for you or your little gang that follow me into every thread to harass....this is for those wanting to learn, looking for answers and help that DO care. If it did not correct these issues then there is legitimate reason to carry on as such, but otherwise please end this. I DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT!!! Let the people that do the fix decide......then there is NO assumptions or opinions. Just actual results no one can argue against.
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Old 07-24-2014, 01:51 PM   #163
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I thought the title of this thread was "3.5L Ecoboost New Misfire Fix TSB Jan 2014“

It would be nice if the majority of the posts discussed the TSB, what changes or made, and it's results.

Not just yet another thread degrading into catch can or not to catch can.

I personally would like to know more about the TSB results for my own possible updates.
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Old 07-24-2014, 02:10 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Eco Tuner View Post
The NTSB article you keep throwing out has not corrected the issue, has it.
Considering that's the source and that is what the TSB addresses. Yes. Especially considering the issue happens primarily in summer and the incidences reported on the late 2013 and 2014's is far, far greater than before. And those that have had the latest fix done seem to not have it happen again. So, I'd say yes.

Unless you are insinuating that Ford lied to the NHTSA as to the true source of this issue. In which case I think you better take that up with them vs us.

Quote:
You were going to contact Rhineland Ford direct as you doubted this....but when given their contact you never followed through and posted the reply from them....so another member posted what he got from them:
#1, I was not going to. And #2, that is your cute little picture. That member, IIRC never got a reply or never posted it. But I could be wrong.

Quote:
But please stop muddying up the threads for those looking for help and a solution.
THE SOLUTION IS FROM FORD. Not you.
If one has the shudder:
  • Get it in for the latest TSB
  • Check and replace your plugs (or at least gap them)
  • Check and replace coils
  • Check and replace
That eliminates it in 99% of the cases. Ford took a couple tries to get it right, not denying that. But we don't see near the incidences from the late 2013/2014's that we did with the 201's.

If one thinks they need to protect their engine a can may be what they need.

Quote:
They have nothing to loose as there is no risk, these are people that are frustrated after visiting the dealer multiple time for the TSB's to address the shudder and misfire, and have had no luck.
There have been reports of dealers skimping out on the TSB - doing deflectors and not the PCM reflash, doing the PCM and not the deflectors, etc. Heck I think part of the TSB should be plugs and that's Ford's issue.

Quote:
This is to specifically address a common issue, and is not "pushed" on anyone.
Really? Posting the sales pitch in unrelated threads (like this one, talking about the TSB), posting the same things in darn near every thread about the Ecoboost, etc. Sure seems like pushing to me. But then again I may be more sensitive than most. Other vendors do not do these things. Tuning guys don't pop up in every thread about performance pushing their tuners. Other can guys don't post the same things in these threads, etc.

Quote:
The information is presented for the owners to make that decision....and if I was just a "sales Pitchman" as you claim, we manufacture 27 different products from super chargers systems, turbo systems, and tons of other popular products and I dont push a one.
Really, cause a quick Google search sees this same stuff played out by you in the Camaro forums, CTSV forums, other Ecoboost forums, etc. Complete with the same pictures you've posted here and the same text. So don't say you don't push any of them.

Quote:
So I ask again, please stop this non stop war your waging.
What war? I let your previous personal attacks go. And if you truly want the information to be out there that includes both good and bad. There's 3 sides to every story, party 1, party 2, and the truth.

Quote:
(except you attack and gang up on those that do come in and report their findings after doing the PCV system fix creating even more tension and drama).
Please point me and others to a post where I "attacked" someone reporting their experiences. Cause I don't believe I've ever done that when it came from someone other than you cause we all can see where that may be a wee bit biased.

Quote:
Lets just please keep these threads on topic, share actual results, and if any of these members that have installed the fix find it did NOT do as described, then there would be legitimate reason to raise an argument.
I'm sorry, the title of this thread is "3.5L Ecoboost New Misfire Fix TSB Jan 2014" so really all of these posts are off topic. It's not about catch can experiences, drilling holes, etc. It's about FORD'S TSB.

Perhaps a thread like the 5.0 can thread would be best? Maybe 3.5 Can results? Cause I don't see how Ford's fix and your "fix" are the same.

Quote:
This is NOT for you or your little gang that follow me into every thread to harass
Don't flatter yourself - I don't follow you around. I honestly have no idea what or where you post other than the threads we happen to post on together. When I get the e-mails on threads I post on I check the link. I have no idea where else you post or what you say. Nor do I really care. And there is no "gang". I've never met any of these guys nor do we conspire against you. There is no gang.

It's the constant posting ads about your "fix" while discounting Ford's fix. It's the constant blatant and non-blatant ads. It's that darn near every thread about an EB problem turns into a can ad.

It's the constant "you're not an auto engineer so you can't possibly understand" stuff. I've been around cars and loved cars my whole life. Had I not went into IT, I'd be turning wrenches. I was that kid in school that read the manuals and mechanics textbooks for fun. So, while I may be in IT (and others) have a decent handle on how this all works.

Enough about this - I think for the sake of the thread we should not discuss us, cans, or anything but Ford's TSB.
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Old 07-24-2014, 03:22 PM   #165
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If this was not directly related to the misfire and shudder, I would not share this. But it is, and it is proven time and again. And the Ford dealers installing these did not contact us to "make money" and sell unneeded things, each one contacted us after either reading these threads, being in contact with Ford engineers directly, or refferd by another Ford dealer when they had exhausted all the factory TSB's. Just as Joe form Rhineland Ford responds to any that ask. We dont prospect or approach any dealers, they come to us seeking alternatives to the TSB's that have not worked for them. Those that have had 100% success with the TSB's none of this concerns them as they have no issue, correct? No matter what you ask for, it gets provided, and then you discount it like you are now discounting the dealer techs using this to fix the issues they have been unable to with the TSB's and the customers are about to lemon law or other drastic action.

Anyone curious, and looking for an outside professionals opinion contact Rhinelands Master Tech Joe directly and schedule a visit there.

You have now accused the Ford dealers implementing these fix's as "selling unneeded services/products". You just move on through each proof and dismiss it. Again, this is not for you...you believe what you want. This is for those that have tried and not gotten results from the TSB's.

And as I also go into detail on the plugs, coils, etc that have also been found to contribute to some of these.

You ask for those that have done this and the results? Here are a few, including some that had no obvious issues. These are all memebrs here, most have gotten attacked by you and your group when they posted these results, so here they are again in one post:

Well, I'm going to be one of those users that don't exactly fit your profile. I had no problems before installing the catch can. However, having built numerous racing engines over the years, I can tell you things I don't like in my oil: sulfur, soot, water, fuel, etc. I also know how damaging buildup on the neck of the valves can be to valve guides. Therefore I installed a can.

My main reason for me is like you say, to keep the air system clean, which it seems to be doing very well! I have had the stumbling issue more than once, but at that time, RX or any catch can for that matter wasn't on the radar? I went the aftermarket IC and tune route. Plus, moving to a dryer climate helps!
That being said, after obtaining a much better understanding of how this system works over the last few months, I have no doubts in what TB is claiming. I can say that my idle has smoothed out and mileage is coming up which would support exactly what is claimed!
Bottom line is this, for long term use the positives that this system provides outstrips any negatives!


I drilled the hole in the CAC a long time ago, never had the condensation issue again after that. I put the can on to resolve the rising oil problem, which it has done in spades. Within 200 miles my oil level returned to normal and has stayed there ever since. Oil looks much better and no longer has that faint gas odor.

I'm still pulling a couple ounces out every Friday.

I still get a little mixture (10-15 cc) out of the can about once a week even though temps are now pretty warm. In winter I could get as much as 50cc every 3 days. I suspect when full blown summer gets here it will collect very minimal amount. But man does it look nasty.

I drained this from mine today after 1000 miles of mostly city driving. Truck is new with only 1600 miles so no major changes in fuel economy that I could notice yet. Looks to be 6 or 7 oz in a 17oz bottle. Glad it is keeping this out of my engine...
Attached Images Attached Images


This is more to prevent carbon from building up around the valve stems and damaging the valve train with the carbon deposits. Over time, the gunk that the catcha can catches form the crank case will build up on the valves causing power loss and decreased mileage. this is a very gradual shift so it will be hard to notice. In port injection engines you can have an additive spray onto the valves because the fuel mixes with the air before passing through the intake valves, in a direct injection motor the fuel is sprayed directly into the cylinder and never touches the valves which prevents additives from being able to clean up the carbon deposits. The gunk in the catch can is a mixture of water, fuel, and oil, none of these are things that you want to have in your air intake in a motor, but they end up there because Ford was not able to provide a system on these trucks from stock to deal with the PCV system as it should be. Many drivers will never know the difference because it is such a gradual shift into the power loss, but if you are going to purchase this truck and intend to care for it in the best way possible, and wish to get the most out of it for as long as you have it, seriously consider dropping the cash to get a catch can for it.

Tons more, but that will only clog this up further.

So, if the OP of this thread post's his test results will that help? I suspect not as you don't care who it is that attest to the issue and the fix, and it CAN BE DONE W/OUT my product as well!!! There are now 2 others that have copied what we do and have effective solutions to this. And that does not generate me a dime.....they are direct competitors but have also identified the need for a solution, so don't even consider looking at our solution, just the solution specifically if you think that is my purpose here.
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Old 07-24-2014, 04:02 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Eco Tuner View Post
These are all memebrs here, most have gotten attacked by you and your group when they posted these results, so here they are again in one post:
Can you post a link to one or more of the posts where they posted this information? I can't find it.

In fact, going to the search at the top of the site here and typing these in all redirects to this post:

"But man does it look nasty."
"I'm still pulling a couple ounces out every Friday."
"My main reason for me is like you say, to keep the air system clean"
"Plus, moving to a dryer climate helps"
"Therefore I installed a can"
"I drilled the hole in the CAC a long time ago"

For those that don't know the quotes simply mean to search for only those words. Anyone can try it.

So either search is broken (doubtful as it brings up this post) or they were not posted on this site. But if you have a link to them that would be great - I will simply read.

Quote:
So, if the OP of this thread post's his test results will that help? I suspect not as you don't care who it is that attest to the issue and the fix,
So unless I missed something this thread was about Mak discussing Ford's fix. But if he has done some testing, have him post it up. I also tend to read what Mak writes as he's one I trust 1000% and don't remember him doing a test.
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3.5L Ecoboost New Misfire Fix TSB Jan 2014-post.jpg  
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Old 07-24-2014, 04:29 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eco Tuner View Post
If this was not directly related to the misfire and shudder, I would not share this. But it is, and it is proven time and again. And the Ford dealers installing these did not contact us to "make money" and sell unneeded things, each one contacted us after either reading these threads, being in contact with Ford engineers directly, or refferd by another Ford dealer when they had exhausted all the factory TSB's. Just as Joe form Rhineland Ford responds to any that ask. We dont prospect or approach any dealers, they come to us seeking alternatives to the TSB's that have not worked for them. Those that have had 100% success with the TSB's none of this concerns them as they have no issue, correct? No matter what you ask for, it gets provided, and then you discount it like you are now discounting the dealer techs using this to fix the issues they have been unable to with the TSB's and the customers are about to lemon law or other drastic action.

Anyone curious, and looking for an outside professionals opinion contact Rhinelands Master Tech Joe directly and schedule a visit there.

You have now accused the Ford dealers implementing these fix's as "selling unneeded services/products". You just move on through each proof and dismiss it. Again, this is not for you...you believe what you want. This is for those that have tried and not gotten results from the TSB's.

And as I also go into detail on the plugs, coils, etc that have also been found to contribute to some of these.

You ask for those that have done this and the results? Here are a few, including some that had no obvious issues. These are all memebrs here, most have gotten attacked by you and your group when they posted these results, so here they are again in one post:

Well, I'm going to be one of those users that don't exactly fit your profile. I had no problems before installing the catch can. However, having built numerous racing engines over the years, I can tell you things I don't like in my oil: sulfur, soot, water, fuel, etc. I also know how damaging buildup on the neck of the valves can be to valve guides. Therefore I installed a can.

My main reason for me is like you say, to keep the air system clean, which it seems to be doing very well! I have had the stumbling issue more than once, but at that time, RX or any catch can for that matter wasn't on the radar? I went the aftermarket IC and tune route. Plus, moving to a dryer climate helps!
That being said, after obtaining a much better understanding of how this system works over the last few months, I have no doubts in what TB is claiming. I can say that my idle has smoothed out and mileage is coming up which would support exactly what is claimed!
Bottom line is this, for long term use the positives that this system provides outstrips any negatives!

I drilled the hole in the CAC a long time ago, never had the condensation issue again after that. I put the can on to resolve the rising oil problem, which it has done in spades. Within 200 miles my oil level returned to normal and has stayed there ever since. Oil looks much better and no longer has that faint gas odor.

I'm still pulling a couple ounces out every Friday.

I still get a little mixture (10-15 cc) out of the can about once a week even though temps are now pretty warm. In winter I could get as much as 50cc every 3 days. I suspect when full blown summer gets here it will collect very minimal amount. But man does it look nasty.

I drained this from mine today after 1000 miles of mostly city driving. Truck is new with only 1600 miles so no major changes in fuel economy that I could notice yet. Looks to be 6 or 7 oz in a 17oz bottle. Glad it is keeping this out of my engine...
Attached Images Attached Images

This is more to prevent carbon from building up around the valve stems and damaging the valve train with the carbon deposits. Over time, the gunk that the catcha can catches form the crank case will build up on the valves causing power loss and decreased mileage. this is a very gradual shift so it will be hard to notice. In port injection engines you can have an additive spray onto the valves because the fuel mixes with the air before passing through the intake valves, in a direct injection motor the fuel is sprayed directly into the cylinder and never touches the valves which prevents additives from being able to clean up the carbon deposits. The gunk in the catch can is a mixture of water, fuel, and oil, none of these are things that you want to have in your air intake in a motor, but they end up there because Ford was not able to provide a system on these trucks from stock to deal with the PCV system as it should be. Many drivers will never know the difference because it is such a gradual shift into the power loss, but if you are going to purchase this truck and intend to care for it in the best way possible, and wish to get the most out of it for as long as you have it, seriously consider dropping the cash to get a catch can for it.

Tons more, but that will only clog this up further.

So, if the OP of this thread post's his test results will that help? I suspect not as you don't care who it is that attest to the issue and the fix, and it CAN BE DONE W/OUT my product as well!!! There are now 2 others that have copied what we do and have effective solutions to this. And that does not generate me a dime.....they are direct competitors but have also identified the need for a solution, so don't even consider looking at our solution, just the solution specifically if you think that is my purpose here.
As long as you post your claims, I'll continue posting this. Free country. Why should you care, it is a direct quote from you. Those who have issues can either accept your claims that the problem isn't related to rain and is solely caused by cylinder blow-by or they will agree with me and Ford and recognize that the vast majority of problems occur in the rain. In fact,a recent forum poll I started shows 80% of people reporting the problem, report it was raining or foggy. So much for not related. I actually have a few theories how you could be right and rain is a trigger. But what do I know. I don't take these apart all day.....

And since you deny rain has anything to do with it you must not be describing the same problem I have.

From:
http://m.f150forum.com/showpost.php?...5&postcount=84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuner Boost
Absolutely have proven this. The water accumulating in the CAC has no relation to rain or summer heat and humidity as it is not collecting int he CAC from the outside air alone. It is only what is released in the combustion process during the extreme pressure and heat. Just as we see with our air compressors, and these are 80 gal industrial units. If it is not under 120-1980 PSI of pressure, just air in a tank does nothing. It is through the intense compression and the heat generate during this that causes it to separate and condense/collect in the tanks, and we drain this daily as all machinery here uses compressed air in some form. Take a CAC and a high volume air blower and run it all day long.....all week long and zero water will collect in it.

The water we are seeing is what is released during the combustion process and while 99% plus is expelled out the exhaust, some enters the crankcase via blow-by past the rings. this is what needs to be constantly and immediately evacuated through the IM vacuum and thus burned through the combustion process BEFORE it can accumulate and condense in the crankcase as it does in the EB due to the lack of evacuation except at idle and low throttle. If this was NOT the case, then we surely would still be getting water accumulation in the CAC after the RX crankcase evac fix, correct? So if your theory is correct as you keep insisting, please answer me this question.....why after the RX system is installed dies the CAC no longer collect ANY liquids? And why in all the millions of other turbo systems with proper PCV systems do they accumulate little or none as well?

So, NO rain has nothing to do with it as I went over and over in my long post yesterday.

Please read (as you claim you do, but still ask the same questions over and over....and if your not persecuting, what the heck is this?
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Old 07-24-2014, 04:57 PM   #168
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Like I said I proved to myself the 220 degree + stuff coming from the block into the the driver side turbo was what created the mess from the CAC and installing my Trap on that side removed it and removed the mess from the CAC I am satisfied. You do what you want to. It is a free country. It works. No more mess.


I haven't decided on the PCV side as my trucks are Interstate and Express way hill trucks and in boost most of the time with the PCV shut down mostly.
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Old 07-25-2014, 01:16 AM   #169
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:29 AM   #170
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so I met a friend of a friend who basically saved my bacon by being able to find a way to rebuild my bricked PCM due to a failed flash...

he's a drivability tech and he says that the catch can does work.

The problems he's seen with power loss/limp mode etc... has all to do with high humidity and cold weather

He says the engine runs far too rich at cold startups and cold ambient temps and that the CAC is perfectly efficient, but there are issues due to Direct Injection where the cylinder is nowhere near hot enough to burn all the gas, varnishing the exhaust valves and causing fuel dilation.

this then can lead to various issues, which apparently sludges the CAC.

He says the CAC/Intercooler is very effecient, and effectively is too efficient at this cold startup stage, which too in turn can cause condensation to build up in the air intake tubes, moisture getting into the coils and causing a little plug fouling. This will then result in various issues as we've seen reported.
He said in 12/13 they tried to fix this with a bandaid to make the CAC less efficient in hopes to burn it off, keep temps high to prevent condensation but this isn't the best option.

on the 14's I believe they threw in a smaller CAC (like mine)

He says the latest PCM updates in the last 4 months have effectively attempted to address this but he does suggest the following:

1. change your plugs every 40,000k km or 24000 miles... even though their iridium, you need to ensure the spark effeciency AND then unplug the battery for 5 minutes to restart the KAM
2. a Catch can is effective though he's never used on. In principle, this will take care of alot of issues
A catch can that separates air as well, would be even better, if they made one.

I'm not trying to promote any products, but if you do alot of winter driving in humid conditions... you have to make precautions apparently

Last edited by r3cc0s; 07-25-2014 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:29 AM
 
 
 
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