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The idea to use HPtuners vs. letting Livernois tune it is not entirely due to pricing. If Livernois tunes the truck you will spend the $700 on one tune. If you purchase HPtuners you will have that software for the remainder of time that you have the vehicle. If you make any modifications you will be able to tune it again and again. Also HPtuners scanner portion is a valuable diagnostic tool. Thats my thought process i guess...
Understood. Also, you do know that you can stack a tune from an Edge (Gryphon) or SCT on top of the Livernois tune. Otherwise you are in for a long road since not too many people (at least on this forum) know anything about HP Tuners.
The terms "lockouts" ... and "protect against failure" seem contra to one another. Lockouts force all traces shown on the following graph to flatline zero - irrespective of the white dashed line (Engine Load). Seems like that is actually a FORCED failure of the VVT system. How does that "protect against failure"? when all the other new parts are installed?
F150Torqued,
I looked at the graph and I guess I am either confused at what you were trying to say, or you were confused as to what I meant by "protect against failure". By installing lockouts you completely eliminate the VVT system and force it into a locked full advance position. My goal is to disable this system. The poor design from Ford of this system just cannot be fixed with updated parts (not well at least). I have read over and over again on this Forum that someone swaps out all the parts and is having good results, only to see them post up not much later down the road that the noise came back. My idea of protecting against failure was to lock these phasers so that they will not completely fail and grenade the motor later on.
My post was meant to get advice as to what needs to be disabled in the tune in order to have the vehicle run normal in the full advanced position. Understanding that I will likely loose a little top end power. A lot of these tuners can disable the system, however I want to know if the timing tables also need to be zeroed out in order to keep the computer from entering "limp" mode, or attempting to retard the timing. I hope that helps clarify???
Understood. Also, you do know that you can stack a tune from an Edge (Gryphon) or SCT on top of the Livernois tune. Otherwise you are in for a long road since not too many people (at least on this forum) know anything about HP Tuners.
Thanks, I did not know that you could stack tunes. I have a lot of LS series tuning experience but I understand that Ford is very different. I also have zero experience with VVT tuning. I think your right, there aren't many users on here with HPtuners experience. They offer such a good product I wanted to continue using them. These handheld's are just too limited as to what you can edit.
The only people that have issues come back are ones that use Dorman phasers......I hope someone can help with your tuning questions. You may be able to work a deal with a tuner such as 5Star or MPT, but they may not be willing to help since you didnt buy anything from them. Goodluck.
I looked at the graph and I guess I am either confused at what you were trying to say, or you were confused as to what I meant by "protect against failure". By installing lockouts you completely eliminate the VVT system and force it into a locked full advance position. My goal is to disable this system. The poor design from Ford of this system just cannot be fixed with updated parts (not well at least). I have read over and over again on this Forum that someone swaps out all the parts and is having good results, only to see them post up not much later down the road that the noise came back. My idea of protecting against failure was to lock these phasers so that they will not completely fail and grenade the motor later on.
My post was meant to get advice as to what needs to be disabled in the tune in order to have the vehicle run normal in the full advanced position. Understanding that I will likely loose a little top end power. A lot of these tuners can disable the system, however I want to know if the timing tables also need to be zeroed out in order to keep the computer from entering "limp" mode, or attempting to retard the timing. I hope that helps clarify???
I understood what you said, just not the methodology. Lockouts mask a problem as opposed to implementing a fix. If oil pressure, Oil Flow, guides, tensioners are ok - and chains are not stretched from wear - there will be no phaser noise. Lockouts 'FIX" nothing but the 'noise', and the remaining ones are what can cause the engine to 'grenade' if not corrected/maintained. Most who install lockouts - correct some combination of the others. If these components were in order - all that is required to eliminate VVT is unplug the Solenoids - and use the tuner to do something about the resulting DTC.
Sorry I can't help with tunes as I know nothing about them. As for the VVT system, I have investigated/studied/monitored its operation extensively - and rebuilt my own, at 212k miles. The VVT system employs retard, as much as 60 Cksº, (the "blue line" in the graph [requested retard]), under a majority of operating conditions. It's benefits are not few or minor (though subtle *) - such as cyl head temp, fuel mileage-economy, AND emissions . Thus, I am not a fan of lockouts to simply mask phaser noise.
EDIT: (Though subtle *), Through monitoring I've noticed under cruise control, the PCM adjusts VVT retard to maintain speed - BEFORE - throttle. (interesting!)
Last edited by F150Torqued; 01-22-2017 at 10:19 AM.
Thats my consensus as well. Lock-outs mask a problem, not fix it. If all Motorcraft parts are used to rebuild a timing system and a Melling 360 or equivalent oil pump is used, then the engine will most likely need a total rebuild before the timing system needs attention for a second time.
^^^X3^^^ for me. We all know the major manufacturer of the lockouts that is pushing them. I understand...that is how they make money. Sure, the bandaid works (at the expense of performance). Sure, the VVT system is flawed, but can be improved upon with the right components. Should Ford have done this? Absolutely. It comes down to economics and calculated risks with all the manufacturers, as with the spark plugs. It took Ford 4 years of denying the problem (while applying bandaids) before they actually addressed the problem with a head redesign.
Thats my consensus as well. Lock-outs mask a problem, not fix it. If all Motorcraft parts are used to rebuild a timing system and a Melling 360 or equivalent oil pump is used, then the engine will most likely need a total rebuild before the timing system needs attention for a second time.
x3 as well. Fix it right the problem will go away.
Hp tuners is a DIY tuning platform. They supply the hardware and software and you write the tune.i am replacing the oil pump, timing chain set, steel tensioners, and installing lockouts. My goal is to eliminate the noise and protect against failure. Thanks
@jkoprowski - please realize - although there has been no tune help, everyone's interest is well-intended. I took liberty of highlighting the important words in one of your post above. You are 100% the way there in labor - and 100% the way there in costs (if you exchanging the $700.00 Livernois tune for Motorcraft Phasers and a set of lifters / rollers, and O2 sensors for good measure).
01-21-2017, 05:38 PM
