Problem after Phaser Install, HELP
02-06-2017, 09:12 PM
#31
LightningRod
sorry - I hadn't read prior posts. "Cold" oill pressure has a lot to do with JUST "HOW COLD" - after cold soak on mine (here in South Texas - maybe 40-45º night), mine will idle 90-95, but I think your 42 may not """"REALLY"""" be full operating temp - HOT idle yet. By comparison, mine will idle after a 30 mile run on a 100 degree day, in gear, A/C on at about 26-27 lbs. Beyond that - I'd have to look at your OIL TEMP PID to determine if engine oil temp is at full 'operating temperature' - (around 195-202 degrees). That's about where mine is when the above 26 lbs readings were - running a Melling 10360 oil pump and currently at 222K miles.
But, all that said, I think you have "GENERELLY" eliminated oil pressure as the explanation for the rough idle. I think its time to try the next step. ??????????(either pull the VCT solenoids for inspection/swapping - or try to get some detailed OBD readings - whichever proves easier ???)
As to What scanner do I recommend? @StephenG is right on - While I'm not a salesman for Torque Pro nor do I have a financial interest. The link in my prior post (#15 this thread) is but one small example of its power/flexibility. NO ONE has ever shown on this, or any other, Forum a scanner that will do the kinds of things Torque Pro is capable of. It will do ANYTHING that Ford's IDS (Integrated Diagnostics System) can do if you can find the PID numbers/formulas. I have been told that DashCommand on an iPhone has this ability also. But I cannot independently verify that. If I were not an Android phone user, I would just buy a Android tablet or old phone off Ebay / Craigs list. Wouldn't even have to have a phone account for it if you have WiFi at home.
I do KNOW THIS beyond a shadow of a doubt. That ability to add PIDs/Formulas is imperative for any Scanner / Code Reader. There are only about 20 Standard - Federally Mandated PID assignments and DTCs. But every vehicle brand has literally hundreds of PIDS available and they vary widely between models - even of the same year model. //// This is the nature of the beast when you consider differences between Ford Powerstroke / Ford Triton 3v / and Honda Hybrid. No way could one fit all. I've found over 460 different identifiable PIDs for the 2004 5.4L 3v Triton. Even Torque Pro - out of the box - will only read about 35-40 of them because beyond that gets into vehicle specific stuff for any vehicle.
But, all that said, I think you have "GENERELLY" eliminated oil pressure as the explanation for the rough idle. I think its time to try the next step. ??????????(either pull the VCT solenoids for inspection/swapping - or try to get some detailed OBD readings - whichever proves easier ???)
As to What scanner do I recommend? @StephenG is right on - While I'm not a salesman for Torque Pro nor do I have a financial interest. The link in my prior post (#15 this thread) is but one small example of its power/flexibility. NO ONE has ever shown on this, or any other, Forum a scanner that will do the kinds of things Torque Pro is capable of. It will do ANYTHING that Ford's IDS (Integrated Diagnostics System) can do if you can find the PID numbers/formulas. I have been told that DashCommand on an iPhone has this ability also. But I cannot independently verify that. If I were not an Android phone user, I would just buy a Android tablet or old phone off Ebay / Craigs list. Wouldn't even have to have a phone account for it if you have WiFi at home.
I do KNOW THIS beyond a shadow of a doubt. That ability to add PIDs/Formulas is imperative for any Scanner / Code Reader. There are only about 20 Standard - Federally Mandated PID assignments and DTCs. But every vehicle brand has literally hundreds of PIDS available and they vary widely between models - even of the same year model. //// This is the nature of the beast when you consider differences between Ford Powerstroke / Ford Triton 3v / and Honda Hybrid. No way could one fit all. I've found over 460 different identifiable PIDs for the 2004 5.4L 3v Triton. Even Torque Pro - out of the box - will only read about 35-40 of them because beyond that gets into vehicle specific stuff for any vehicle.
02-06-2017, 10:04 PM
#32
05 5.4l 3v s.crew lariat
Notes
"I did not clean the act housing. To be quite honest i wasn't sure how to safely do that without spraying cleaner deep into the engine. "
I think its best to pull them off to clean them , I failed to clean mine but luckily I got away with it . I would clean them if I go back . But I did an engine flush just before tearing it down which made it run terribly as expected .
As for the tone ring I understand from others she will not run if backwards .
As for the way you timed it, that is very trouble some. Many of these engines that have broken guides jump time , mine did . So putting it back to same is not good .I tear mine down at the timing points cams ,crank gear 6 oclock and tdc no 1 .
Special tools are not needed , it is nice to have geared tooth holding tool for phasor but you got around that . You must have a torque wrench and use it .
I pull cams instead of using that $200 valve spring tool but I do it carefully-- no valves down no interference . I blue locktte all bolts inside timing cover except phasor bolts and torque everything .
The very hardest thing about the timing job is getting that cover off and passenger valve cover off . Of course that means getting that Damn power steering off .
So in my opinion your chances of being out of time %75 chances of a poor phasor %50- maybe dirt in circuit . So yes pull those vct's and look at the screens . But I can be as wrong as anyone . I enjoy learning on here .
Hate that you did all this and having trouble . I know you must have sweated bullets . If you go back in we will help for sure .
I think its best to pull them off to clean them , I failed to clean mine but luckily I got away with it . I would clean them if I go back . But I did an engine flush just before tearing it down which made it run terribly as expected .
As for the tone ring I understand from others she will not run if backwards .
As for the way you timed it, that is very trouble some. Many of these engines that have broken guides jump time , mine did . So putting it back to same is not good .I tear mine down at the timing points cams ,crank gear 6 oclock and tdc no 1 .
Special tools are not needed , it is nice to have geared tooth holding tool for phasor but you got around that . You must have a torque wrench and use it .
I pull cams instead of using that $200 valve spring tool but I do it carefully-- no valves down no interference . I blue locktte all bolts inside timing cover except phasor bolts and torque everything .
The very hardest thing about the timing job is getting that cover off and passenger valve cover off . Of course that means getting that Damn power steering off .
So in my opinion your chances of being out of time %75 chances of a poor phasor %50- maybe dirt in circuit . So yes pull those vct's and look at the screens . But I can be as wrong as anyone . I enjoy learning on here .
Hate that you did all this and having trouble . I know you must have sweated bullets . If you go back in we will help for sure .
02-07-2017, 03:09 PM
#33
I recently had my timing chain and tensioners replaced because of the chatter at start up and under load, ended up being broken guide and tensioner seals. when I got it back it ran fine under normal conditions and idle, but at wot it missed bad and would go into limp mode. I ended up tearing it down my self this time and I was out of time. evidently when it jumped time when the tensioners and guides were bad and since there was so much slop it didn't throw it out of time as bad as when the guides and tensioners were replaced. once it lubed it all back up and reassembled, my truck runs better than ever...
02-07-2017, 08:58 PM
#34
Well boys I just wanted to say thank you for all your help and information with this problem that I was having. I went ahead and swapped the new VCT solenoid out with the old one and instantly the thing ran great. What I am assuming happened is that the new VCT solenoid was stuck wide open causing my timing to be retarded on the driver side. Freedom Racing is sending me a new solenoid. I really appreciate everyone chiming in and helping me get to the bottom of the problem. I hope this truck runs great for another 100k.
The following 2 users liked this post by jkoprowski:
F150Torqued (02-07-2017),
redfishtd (02-10-2017)
02-07-2017, 09:20 PM
#35
LightningRod
First - thank you for posting the resolution to your problem.
I believe you have a firm understanding of the system operation and have pegged the problem. If a VCT Solenoid does not close firmly - thus routing excess oil flow into the retard chambers sufficient to retard ONE cam - when the other is NOT... One of the distinct effects of retard is it reduces the compression ratio of all 4 cylinders on that bank. Reviewing the firing order makes it easy to understand how THAT would result in a 'ragged' idle.
Good luck. I hope you are on the way to a long serviceable run.
Knowing what you do about VVT, I think you would enjoy monitoring its operation. You might look into a WiFi dongle and a copy of Dashcommand for the iPhone. Or pick up a cheep Android phone / tablet and a Bluetooth dongle and get Torque Pro. It is fun.
I believe you have a firm understanding of the system operation and have pegged the problem. If a VCT Solenoid does not close firmly - thus routing excess oil flow into the retard chambers sufficient to retard ONE cam - when the other is NOT... One of the distinct effects of retard is it reduces the compression ratio of all 4 cylinders on that bank. Reviewing the firing order makes it easy to understand how THAT would result in a 'ragged' idle.
Good luck. I hope you are on the way to a long serviceable run.
Knowing what you do about VVT, I think you would enjoy monitoring its operation. You might look into a WiFi dongle and a copy of Dashcommand for the iPhone. Or pick up a cheep Android phone / tablet and a Bluetooth dongle and get Torque Pro. It is fun.
08-15-2017, 09:56 PM
#36
Update Please?
There is a wealth of good points appearing for @jkoprowski - just as I had hoped.
ACTUAL "Hot Idle" oil pressure is definitely important - beyond those 'stupidly simple' initial things I first thought of. No high pressure pump can overcome bad thrust bearings, main bearings, or cam bearings. (In fact --- I HATE --- the term "high pressure" related to oil pumps.) You cannot increase pressure at a given RPM (idle) without increasing 'volume' being pushed through the system. Pressure is controlled by the spring-ball valve on the pumps' output. I can increase relief pressure on the existing pump by simply placing washers underneath the relief valve spring, but it does NOT increase pressure at idle, only at high RPM where there is excess 'volume' being pushed into the galleys. At idle - no oil pump is not producing enough pressure to relieve AT ALL.
Aside from that, if the simple initial things produce no 'positive' results, I contend the next pointers will have to be in one of two areas.
1). Actual live scanner readings of certain OBDII PIDs (ie: requested Retard-16CD, Bank2 Cam error-091D, bank2 VCT duty cycle-091E, Cam/Crank Sync signal-09CD, Cam Position Fault Mode-1107).
Requested retard is at ZERO at idle (with or without CAMSYNC or CPMFM)- and must equate to ZERO Duty Cycle on VCT2 - must equate to ZERO cam error on CAM2. If there is cam error (over retard) on cam2 - it is NOT returning to base position and locking. P0022= > 5º over retard for > 5 seconds. (That could be electrical fault keeping VCT2 open, sticking solenoid, trash in passage ways, bad/binding cam2 journals or rotational resistance that cannot be overcome by residual idle oil pressure. These can be accomplished with a scanner that allows inputting specific PID number and formula such as Torque Pro. Example with PIDs/formulas:https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...4/#post5133357
2). Put an aftermarket oil pressure on and verify sufficient oil pressure, getting you down to either a bad VCT solenoid, bad Phaser, or excessive cam rotational resistance on bank 2, or dreaded plugged up oil passageway.
I know nothing about the "Precision Auto CNC" phasers. But I hope you didn't rely solely on the 'Advertising' statements on Freedom Racing's product page ........ which states:
Their Precision Auto CNC sells for $139.99 ;;;;;;; and has the Notation:
ATTENTION: Over the years we've carried many brands of 3V phasers. Based on customer feedback and warranty claim rates, we believe Precision Auto CNC AM-3R2Z-6A257-DA offer the absolute best quality and reliability in the market. Ford OEM 3R2Z-6A257-DA seem to be almost as good as the Precision Auto CNC phasers but issues are slightly more common. We've had an extremely high warranty claim rate on Dorman phasers and other aftermarket brands, so we don't recommend them.
Their FORD OEM (Pair) sells for $427.76 ///// and has the following Notation:
ATTENTION: Over the years we've carried many brands of 3V phasers. Based on customer feedback and warranty claim rates, we believe Precision Auto CNC AM-3R2Z-6A257-DA offer the absolute best quality and reliability in the market. Ford OEM 3R2Z-6A257-DA seem to be almost as good as the Precision Auto CNC phasers but issues are slightly more common.
------
I hope not but you could be one adding to the wrong side of their statics.
ACTUAL "Hot Idle" oil pressure is definitely important - beyond those 'stupidly simple' initial things I first thought of. No high pressure pump can overcome bad thrust bearings, main bearings, or cam bearings. (In fact --- I HATE --- the term "high pressure" related to oil pumps.) You cannot increase pressure at a given RPM (idle) without increasing 'volume' being pushed through the system. Pressure is controlled by the spring-ball valve on the pumps' output. I can increase relief pressure on the existing pump by simply placing washers underneath the relief valve spring, but it does NOT increase pressure at idle, only at high RPM where there is excess 'volume' being pushed into the galleys. At idle - no oil pump is not producing enough pressure to relieve AT ALL.
Aside from that, if the simple initial things produce no 'positive' results, I contend the next pointers will have to be in one of two areas.
1). Actual live scanner readings of certain OBDII PIDs (ie: requested Retard-16CD, Bank2 Cam error-091D, bank2 VCT duty cycle-091E, Cam/Crank Sync signal-09CD, Cam Position Fault Mode-1107).
Requested retard is at ZERO at idle (with or without CAMSYNC or CPMFM)- and must equate to ZERO Duty Cycle on VCT2 - must equate to ZERO cam error on CAM2. If there is cam error (over retard) on cam2 - it is NOT returning to base position and locking. P0022= > 5º over retard for > 5 seconds. (That could be electrical fault keeping VCT2 open, sticking solenoid, trash in passage ways, bad/binding cam2 journals or rotational resistance that cannot be overcome by residual idle oil pressure. These can be accomplished with a scanner that allows inputting specific PID number and formula such as Torque Pro. Example with PIDs/formulas:https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...4/#post5133357
2). Put an aftermarket oil pressure on and verify sufficient oil pressure, getting you down to either a bad VCT solenoid, bad Phaser, or excessive cam rotational resistance on bank 2, or dreaded plugged up oil passageway.
I know nothing about the "Precision Auto CNC" phasers. But I hope you didn't rely solely on the 'Advertising' statements on Freedom Racing's product page ........ which states:
Their Precision Auto CNC sells for $139.99 ;;;;;;; and has the Notation:
ATTENTION: Over the years we've carried many brands of 3V phasers. Based on customer feedback and warranty claim rates, we believe Precision Auto CNC AM-3R2Z-6A257-DA offer the absolute best quality and reliability in the market. Ford OEM 3R2Z-6A257-DA seem to be almost as good as the Precision Auto CNC phasers but issues are slightly more common. We've had an extremely high warranty claim rate on Dorman phasers and other aftermarket brands, so we don't recommend them.
Their FORD OEM (Pair) sells for $427.76 ///// and has the following Notation:
ATTENTION: Over the years we've carried many brands of 3V phasers. Based on customer feedback and warranty claim rates, we believe Precision Auto CNC AM-3R2Z-6A257-DA offer the absolute best quality and reliability in the market. Ford OEM 3R2Z-6A257-DA seem to be almost as good as the Precision Auto CNC phasers but issues are slightly more common.
------
I hope not but you could be one adding to the wrong side of their statics.
08-15-2017, 10:29 PM
#37
So far they have been working well. They seemed like they were very well made when I installed them. I am not hearing anymore dieseling noise. I am however hearing a light tapping at startup for about 3 seconds. Not sure that it has anything to do with the phasers or an oil leak down issue. I'm working on a fix for this too that pre-oils the oil galleys before starting.
The following users liked this post:
Jake S (08-15-2017)
08-15-2017, 10:34 PM
#38
So far they have been working well. They seemed like they were very well made when I installed them. I am not hearing anymore dieseling noise. I am however hearing a light tapping at startup for about 3 seconds. Not sure that it has anything to do with the phasers or an oil leak down issue. I'm working on a fix for this too that pre-oils the oil galleys before starting.