Problem after Phaser Install, HELP
02-06-2017, 12:52 PM
#21
Hello, 2 years ago my brother did a timing upgrade, phasers, chains, tensioners, guides, pump, and so on. It would run decent but had a P0016 code which is for the pass side head, he dreaded tearing it apart and wasted time and money on other things that didnt help. Finally he tore it down and the pass cam was out of time and even was off a tooth or 2 on the drives side. He also did go to 15w40 and installed a oil press gauge to watch the pressure. So maybe seems how oil pressure is critical install a gauge and maybe do a heavier oil to see if there is a change, or bite the bullet and tear it down to double check. When he did his pump he didnt remove the pan or even drain coolant to do the job and has yet to get the pass side valve cover off the motor. Hope this helps cause he banged his head for awhile trouble shooting. Oh and it was on a 170k 2006 F150
thanks
02-06-2017, 12:53 PM
#22
Im not sure what Torqued will recommend but I know he is a master with the Torque Pro Android App and a good capable reader. If you have an Android device then this app with this reader will do amazing things! https://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Products...ords=bafx+obd2
I will look into it. I am an apple guy but maybe i could figure something out.
02-06-2017, 01:08 PM
#23
Thank you for the great info. I guess what I am having trouble wrapping my mind around is how the timing could be off if it ran PERFECT for almost an hour at idle. Is it feasible that a bad phaser could move it out of correct timing and remain there? if so i would assume that I would need all the Ford tools in order to precisely time it now?
thanks
thanks
Last edited by who_knos; 02-06-2017 at 01:11 PM.
02-06-2017, 01:30 PM
#24
Hello and thanks for the reply,
I would agree with your logic that if it had indeed run perfect at idle for about an hour it would be hard to believe that the timing and/or tone ring were off. I really wanted to check the oil pressure but am waiting for a proper oil pressure gauge from Speedhut (they hand make them so it takes a while). I did not test the oil pressure before or after. I will say that the "dummy" oil gauge on the dash is showing about 5/8 at warm idle. I know that doesn't tell you much.
"I also did the thrust bearings and still ended up with low hot oil pressure at idle and phasers that don't return to base idle when hot." What symptoms does your vehicle have with this problem?
I disconnected the VCT solenoid and started it yesterday with no change. do you think I should disconnect both?
thanks again
I would agree with your logic that if it had indeed run perfect at idle for about an hour it would be hard to believe that the timing and/or tone ring were off. I really wanted to check the oil pressure but am waiting for a proper oil pressure gauge from Speedhut (they hand make them so it takes a while). I did not test the oil pressure before or after. I will say that the "dummy" oil gauge on the dash is showing about 5/8 at warm idle. I know that doesn't tell you much.
"I also did the thrust bearings and still ended up with low hot oil pressure at idle and phasers that don't return to base idle when hot." What symptoms does your vehicle have with this problem?
I disconnected the VCT solenoid and started it yesterday with no change. do you think I should disconnect both?
thanks again
I surmised that under load and higher RPM, the phasers moved out of base timing position and then when slowing down, oil pressure dropped preventing the phasers from moving back to the base timing position. By increasing RPM (without load), I believe I raised oil pressure enough actuate the phasers back to base timing- and this fixed the idle issue temoporarily.
I never tried disconnecting only one solenoid but I respect Torqued enough to not doubt his view on the systems function. I will say that before I disconnected my VCT solenoids, I made sure the phasers were at base timing by raising RPM under no load -then making sure my idle was good. My reasoning for that was that I had tried shutting the engine off (while it was running rough) and restarting to see if the system corrected itself but many times, the rough running persisted even after the shutdown and restart. I rationalized that the phasers hadn't shifted back to base timing. By making sure the truck was idling correctly first- before disconnecting the solenoids, I figured with the solenoids disconnected there "should" be no reason for the phasers to shift from that base timing position. In my case, it has been working (no more stumbling/rough idling upon stopping) for some time now.
02-06-2017, 06:28 PM
#25
Ok I have some info... The only place that I could even find an oil pressure gauge today was Harbor Freight, otherwise I would have had to order one and wait. Anyway if this gauge is accurate I better give Ford Racing some credit. At cold idle my oil pressure reading is 98 psi (not kidding). If i increase the RPMs it goes up to about 120 psi. Warm idle is 42 psi and warm with some RPM's gets about 90 psi. I put it under load (foot on brake in drive) it wants to die at idle but at about 2000 RPMs it seems to smooth out....? I don't know what to say about this. What happens to those Melling steel tensioners at 120 psi, or everything else for that matter?
I cleaned each connector for the PCM and the cam position and crank position sensors. Still running bad at idle.
Where should I go from here?
thanks guys
I cleaned each connector for the PCM and the cam position and crank position sensors. Still running bad at idle.
Where should I go from here?
thanks guys
Last edited by jkoprowski; 02-06-2017 at 06:35 PM. Reason: more content
02-06-2017, 06:30 PM
#26
His ran good just had the code in it, it would kinda stumble but nothing horrible but he did mention rolling coal a few times....lol. On the phaser it may be possible, what he did when he timed it he didnt think of the slack of the pass side head needing to be on the bottom which dont help you I know. When he did re time it he found the fordtech guys video on youtube and followed his directions but did not use any special tools. Could this be possible that there is a gunked passage and at idle the tensioner wasnt pumped and when you started driving it tightened and moved the timing......dumb thought I know but heck anything can happen.
02-06-2017, 06:39 PM
#27
I can tell you the dash gauge is not a gauge at all- it's just a switched sensor so it's just a fancy idiot light. In my case mine would run fine cold and then after it warmed up- as I was coming to a stop, it would be stumbling, running rough and almost stall. I'd have to put it in neutral and lightly apply throttle to bring the RPM's up to about 1800-200 but under no load. I'd have to hold it there for a few seconds and then when it returned to idle, it would idle smoothly... until the next application of load that is.
I surmised that under load and higher RPM, the phasers moved out of base timing position and then when slowing down, oil pressure dropped preventing the phasers from moving back to the base timing position. By increasing RPM (without load), I believe I raised oil pressure enough actuate the phasers back to base timing- and this fixed the idle issue temoporarily.
I never tried disconnecting only one solenoid but I respect Torqued enough to not doubt his view on the systems function. I will say that before I disconnected my VCT solenoids, I made sure the phasers were at base timing by raising RPM under no load -then making sure my idle was good. My reasoning for that was that I had tried shutting the engine off (while it was running rough) and restarting to see if the system corrected itself but many times, the rough running persisted even after the shutdown and restart. I rationalized that the phasers hadn't shifted back to base timing. By making sure the truck was idling correctly first- before disconnecting the solenoids, I figured with the solenoids disconnected there "should" be no reason for the phasers to shift from that base timing position. In my case, it has been working (no more stumbling/rough idling upon stopping) for some time now.
I surmised that under load and higher RPM, the phasers moved out of base timing position and then when slowing down, oil pressure dropped preventing the phasers from moving back to the base timing position. By increasing RPM (without load), I believe I raised oil pressure enough actuate the phasers back to base timing- and this fixed the idle issue temoporarily.
I never tried disconnecting only one solenoid but I respect Torqued enough to not doubt his view on the systems function. I will say that before I disconnected my VCT solenoids, I made sure the phasers were at base timing by raising RPM under no load -then making sure my idle was good. My reasoning for that was that I had tried shutting the engine off (while it was running rough) and restarting to see if the system corrected itself but many times, the rough running persisted even after the shutdown and restart. I rationalized that the phasers hadn't shifted back to base timing. By making sure the truck was idling correctly first- before disconnecting the solenoids, I figured with the solenoids disconnected there "should" be no reason for the phasers to shift from that base timing position. In my case, it has been working (no more stumbling/rough idling upon stopping) for some time now.
02-06-2017, 07:45 PM
#28
LightningRod
The clock spring by itself is just NOT strong enough to overcome the normal resistance valve springs / roller-followers present to the cam lobes. It needs 'some' amount of oil pressure to complete the job and get the Phaser positioned where the spring loaded locking pin can 'capture' the Cam at zero degrees. The oil pressure 'restrictor' in the head that limits oil pressure in head galleys is the 'unknown' for me. I think 15 lbs of pressure (in the lower end) is sorta assumed to be a minimum - but we have no idea how much that equates to in the heads - and thus the Phasers.
02-06-2017, 07:48 PM
#29
The clock spring by itself is just NOT strong enough to overcome the normal resistance valve springs / roller-followers present to the cam lobes. It needs 'some' amount of oil pressure to complete the job and get the Phaser positioned where the spring loaded locking pin can 'capture' the Cam at zero degrees. The oil pressure 'restrictor' in the head that limits oil pressure in head galleys is the 'unknown' for me. I think 15 lbs of pressure (in the lower end) is sorta assumed to be a minimum - but we have no idea how much that equates to in the heads - and thus the Phasers.
"Ok I have some info... The only place that I could even find an oil pressure gauge today was Harbor Freight, otherwise I would have had to order one and wait. Anyway if this gauge is accurate I better give Ford Racing some credit. At cold idle my oil pressure reading is 98 psi (not kidding). If i increase the RPMs it goes up to about 120 psi. Warm idle is 42 psi and warm with some RPM's gets about 90 psi. I put it under load (foot on brake in drive) it wants to die at idle but at about 2000 RPMs it seems to smooth out....? I don't know what to say about this. What happens to those Melling steel tensioners at 120 psi, or everything else for that matter?
I cleaned each connector for the PCM and the cam position and crank position sensors. Still running bad at idle.
Where should I go from here?
thanks guys"
02-06-2017, 08:38 PM
#30
Moderator
I must say I'm just about to have my timing job done and I really hope this doesn't happen to me! Yikes! I hope you figure your problem out and I will follow this thread closely in case I have any issues.