Problem after Phaser Install, HELP
02-06-2017, 10:36 AM
#11
Jkoprowski-
My .02c. The fact that it started and ran perfect until warm suggests your tone ring and base timing are OK. My question is... did you verify warm oil pressure before and after the work? I did all the exact same work you did right down to the new Ford racing pump. I also did the thrust bearings and still ended up with low hot oil pressure at idle and phasers that don't return to base idle when hot.
The simplest test is to disconnect both VCT solenoids and see how she runs hot. Mine runs smooth and quiet with them unhooked.
My .02c. The fact that it started and ran perfect until warm suggests your tone ring and base timing are OK. My question is... did you verify warm oil pressure before and after the work? I did all the exact same work you did right down to the new Ford racing pump. I also did the thrust bearings and still ended up with low hot oil pressure at idle and phasers that don't return to base idle when hot.
The simplest test is to disconnect both VCT solenoids and see how she runs hot. Mine runs smooth and quiet with them unhooked.
I would agree with your logic that if it had indeed run perfect at idle for about an hour it would be hard to believe that the timing and/or tone ring were off. I really wanted to check the oil pressure but am waiting for a proper oil pressure gauge from Speedhut (they hand make them so it takes a while). I did not test the oil pressure before or after. I will say that the "dummy" oil gauge on the dash is showing about 5/8 at warm idle. I know that doesn't tell you much.
"I also did the thrust bearings and still ended up with low hot oil pressure at idle and phasers that don't return to base idle when hot." What symptoms does your vehicle have with this problem?
I disconnected the VCT solenoid and started it yesterday with no change. do you think I should disconnect both?
thanks again
02-06-2017, 10:38 AM
#12
It is possible that I have some gummed up ports also, I will say that it wasn't very gummed up and small amounts of varnish in there... Who knows tho with these small openings...
thanks
02-06-2017, 10:40 AM
#13
LightningRod
Doesn't matter. The PCM detects an electrical open in the VCT circuit and will not enable OBDII flag called VCTENA (Conditions correct for Variable Valve Timing) - thereafter no retard will be requested accomplishing what you desire by unplugging one - NO Duty Cycle to the VCT solenoids.
02-06-2017, 10:46 AM
#14
My thoughts with a P0022 code (Over-Retarded). Could this mean that too much oil is being let through the VCT solenoid and retarding the cam? Such as a stuck open VCT? But would this also lead to a P0018 (Crank Position)? Or maybe the computer freaking out since timing moved somehow...? I guess I really need to check this oil pressure to see what I'm working with.
02-06-2017, 10:59 AM
#15
LightningRod
There is a wealth of good points appearing for @jkoprowski - just as I had hoped.
ACTUAL "Hot Idle" oil pressure is definitely important - beyond those 'stupidly simple' initial things I first thought of. No high pressure pump can overcome bad thrust bearings, main bearings, or cam bearings. (In fact --- I HATE --- the term "high pressure" related to oil pumps.) You cannot increase pressure at a given RPM (idle) without increasing 'volume' being pushed through the system. Pressure is controlled by the spring-ball valve on the pumps' output. I can increase relief pressure on the existing pump by simply placing washers underneath the relief valve spring, but it does NOT increase pressure at idle, only at high RPM where there is excess 'volume' being pushed into the galleys. At idle - no oil pump is not producing enough pressure to relieve AT ALL.
Aside from that, if the simple initial things produce no 'positive' results, I contend the next pointers will have to be in one of two areas.
1). Actual live scanner readings of certain OBDII PIDs (ie: requested Retard-16CD, Bank2 Cam error-091D, bank2 VCT duty cycle-091E, Cam/Crank Sync signal-09CD, Cam Position Fault Mode-1107).
Requested retard is at ZERO at idle (with or without CAMSYNC or CPMFM)- and must equate to ZERO Duty Cycle on VCT2 - must equate to ZERO cam error on CAM2. If there is cam error (over retard) on cam2 - it is NOT returning to base position and locking. P0022= > 5º over retard for > 5 seconds. (That could be electrical fault keeping VCT2 open, sticking solenoid, trash in passage ways, bad/binding cam2 journals or rotational resistance that cannot be overcome by residual idle oil pressure. These can be accomplished with a scanner that allows inputting specific PID number and formula such as Torque Pro. Example with PIDs/formulas:https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...4/#post5133357
2). Put an aftermarket oil pressure on and verify sufficient oil pressure, getting you down to either a bad VCT solenoid, bad Phaser, or excessive cam rotational resistance on bank 2, or dreaded plugged up oil passageway.
I know nothing about the "Precision Auto CNC" phasers. But I hope you didn't rely solely on the 'Advertising' statements on Freedom Racing's product page ........ which states:
Their Precision Auto CNC sells for $139.99 ;;;;;;; and has the Notation:
ATTENTION: Over the years we've carried many brands of 3V phasers. Based on customer feedback and warranty claim rates, we believe Precision Auto CNC AM-3R2Z-6A257-DA offer the absolute best quality and reliability in the market. Ford OEM 3R2Z-6A257-DA seem to be almost as good as the Precision Auto CNC phasers but issues are slightly more common. We've had an extremely high warranty claim rate on Dorman phasers and other aftermarket brands, so we don't recommend them.
Their FORD OEM (Pair) sells for $427.76 ///// and has the following Notation:
ATTENTION: Over the years we've carried many brands of 3V phasers. Based on customer feedback and warranty claim rates, we believe Precision Auto CNC AM-3R2Z-6A257-DA offer the absolute best quality and reliability in the market. Ford OEM 3R2Z-6A257-DA seem to be almost as good as the Precision Auto CNC phasers but issues are slightly more common.
------
I hope not but you could be one adding to the wrong side of their statics.
ACTUAL "Hot Idle" oil pressure is definitely important - beyond those 'stupidly simple' initial things I first thought of. No high pressure pump can overcome bad thrust bearings, main bearings, or cam bearings. (In fact --- I HATE --- the term "high pressure" related to oil pumps.) You cannot increase pressure at a given RPM (idle) without increasing 'volume' being pushed through the system. Pressure is controlled by the spring-ball valve on the pumps' output. I can increase relief pressure on the existing pump by simply placing washers underneath the relief valve spring, but it does NOT increase pressure at idle, only at high RPM where there is excess 'volume' being pushed into the galleys. At idle - no oil pump is not producing enough pressure to relieve AT ALL.
Aside from that, if the simple initial things produce no 'positive' results, I contend the next pointers will have to be in one of two areas.
1). Actual live scanner readings of certain OBDII PIDs (ie: requested Retard-16CD, Bank2 Cam error-091D, bank2 VCT duty cycle-091E, Cam/Crank Sync signal-09CD, Cam Position Fault Mode-1107).
Requested retard is at ZERO at idle (with or without CAMSYNC or CPMFM)- and must equate to ZERO Duty Cycle on VCT2 - must equate to ZERO cam error on CAM2. If there is cam error (over retard) on cam2 - it is NOT returning to base position and locking. P0022= > 5º over retard for > 5 seconds. (That could be electrical fault keeping VCT2 open, sticking solenoid, trash in passage ways, bad/binding cam2 journals or rotational resistance that cannot be overcome by residual idle oil pressure. These can be accomplished with a scanner that allows inputting specific PID number and formula such as Torque Pro. Example with PIDs/formulas:https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...4/#post5133357
2). Put an aftermarket oil pressure on and verify sufficient oil pressure, getting you down to either a bad VCT solenoid, bad Phaser, or excessive cam rotational resistance on bank 2, or dreaded plugged up oil passageway.
I know nothing about the "Precision Auto CNC" phasers. But I hope you didn't rely solely on the 'Advertising' statements on Freedom Racing's product page ........ which states:
Their Precision Auto CNC sells for $139.99 ;;;;;;; and has the Notation:
ATTENTION: Over the years we've carried many brands of 3V phasers. Based on customer feedback and warranty claim rates, we believe Precision Auto CNC AM-3R2Z-6A257-DA offer the absolute best quality and reliability in the market. Ford OEM 3R2Z-6A257-DA seem to be almost as good as the Precision Auto CNC phasers but issues are slightly more common. We've had an extremely high warranty claim rate on Dorman phasers and other aftermarket brands, so we don't recommend them.
Their FORD OEM (Pair) sells for $427.76 ///// and has the following Notation:
ATTENTION: Over the years we've carried many brands of 3V phasers. Based on customer feedback and warranty claim rates, we believe Precision Auto CNC AM-3R2Z-6A257-DA offer the absolute best quality and reliability in the market. Ford OEM 3R2Z-6A257-DA seem to be almost as good as the Precision Auto CNC phasers but issues are slightly more common.
------
I hope not but you could be one adding to the wrong side of their statics.
02-06-2017, 10:59 AM
#16
Moderator
Oil pressure is a good place to start. It is a possibility that you have a clogged port. I don't remember did you run any cleaner though the engine? If so it can sometimes break a chuck loose and plug up a port or a VCT solenoid. Or possibly a piece of your chain guide may have gotten stuck somewhere. If the oil pressure is low at hot idle then you could check the pickup tube again and see if it is clogged also you could check the screens on the VCT solenoids to see if they are plugged up.
02-06-2017, 11:38 AM
#17
Hello, 2 years ago my brother did a timing upgrade, phasers, chains, tensioners, guides, pump, and so on. It would run decent but had a P0016 code which is for the pass side head, he dreaded tearing it apart and wasted time and money on other things that didnt help. Finally he tore it down and the pass cam was out of time and even was off a tooth or 2 on the drives side. He also did go to 15w40 and installed a oil press gauge to watch the pressure. So maybe seems how oil pressure is critical install a gauge and maybe do a heavier oil to see if there is a change, or bite the bullet and tear it down to double check. When he did his pump he didnt remove the pan or even drain coolant to do the job and has yet to get the pass side valve cover off the motor. Hope this helps cause he banged his head for awhile trouble shooting. Oh and it was on a 170k 2006 F150
02-06-2017, 12:39 PM
#18
There is a wealth of good points appearing for @jkoprowski - just as I had hoped.
ACTUAL "Hot Idle" oil pressure is definitely important - beyond those 'stupidly simple' initial things I first thought of. No high pressure pump can overcome bad thrust bearings, main bearings, or cam bearings. (In fact --- I HATE --- the term "high pressure" related to oil pumps.) You cannot increase pressure at a given RPM (idle) without increasing 'volume' being pushed through the system. Pressure is controlled by the spring-ball valve on the pumps' output. I can increase relief pressure on the existing pump by simply placing washers underneath the relief valve spring, but it does NOT increase pressure at idle, only at high RPM where there is excess 'volume' being pushed into the galleys. At idle - no oil pump is not producing enough pressure to relieve AT ALL.
Aside from that, if the simple initial things produce no 'positive' results, I contend the next pointers will have to be in one of two areas.
1). Actual live scanner readings of certain OBDII PIDs (ie: requested Retard-16CD, Bank2 Cam error-091D, bank2 VCT duty cycle-091E, Cam/Crank Sync signal-09CD, Cam Position Fault Mode-1107).
Requested retard is at ZERO at idle (with or without CAMSYNC or CPMFM)- and must equate to ZERO Duty Cycle on VCT2 - must equate to ZERO cam error on CAM2. If there is cam error (over retard) on cam2 - it is NOT returning to base position and locking. P0022= > 5º over retard for > 5 seconds. (That could be electrical fault keeping VCT2 open, sticking solenoid, trash in passage ways, bad/binding cam2 journals or rotational resistance that cannot be overcome by residual idle oil pressure. These can be accomplished with a scanner that allows inputting specific PID number and formula such as Torque Pro. Example with PIDs/formulas:https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...4/#post5133357
2). Put an aftermarket oil pressure on and verify sufficient oil pressure, getting you down to either a bad VCT solenoid, bad Phaser, or excessive cam rotational resistance on bank 2, or dreaded plugged up oil passageway.
I know nothing about the "Precision Auto CNC" phasers. But I hope you didn't rely solely on the 'Advertising' statements on Freedom Racing's product page ........ which states:
Their Precision Auto CNC sells for $139.99 ;;;;;;; and has the Notation:
ATTENTION: Over the years we've carried many brands of 3V phasers. Based on customer feedback and warranty claim rates, we believe Precision Auto CNC AM-3R2Z-6A257-DA offer the absolute best quality and reliability in the market. Ford OEM 3R2Z-6A257-DA seem to be almost as good as the Precision Auto CNC phasers but issues are slightly more common. We've had an extremely high warranty claim rate on Dorman phasers and other aftermarket brands, so we don't recommend them.
Their FORD OEM (Pair) sells for $427.76 ///// and has the following Notation:
ATTENTION: Over the years we've carried many brands of 3V phasers. Based on customer feedback and warranty claim rates, we believe Precision Auto CNC AM-3R2Z-6A257-DA offer the absolute best quality and reliability in the market. Ford OEM 3R2Z-6A257-DA seem to be almost as good as the Precision Auto CNC phasers but issues are slightly more common.
------
I hope not but you could be one adding to the wrong side of their statics.
ACTUAL "Hot Idle" oil pressure is definitely important - beyond those 'stupidly simple' initial things I first thought of. No high pressure pump can overcome bad thrust bearings, main bearings, or cam bearings. (In fact --- I HATE --- the term "high pressure" related to oil pumps.) You cannot increase pressure at a given RPM (idle) without increasing 'volume' being pushed through the system. Pressure is controlled by the spring-ball valve on the pumps' output. I can increase relief pressure on the existing pump by simply placing washers underneath the relief valve spring, but it does NOT increase pressure at idle, only at high RPM where there is excess 'volume' being pushed into the galleys. At idle - no oil pump is not producing enough pressure to relieve AT ALL.
Aside from that, if the simple initial things produce no 'positive' results, I contend the next pointers will have to be in one of two areas.
1). Actual live scanner readings of certain OBDII PIDs (ie: requested Retard-16CD, Bank2 Cam error-091D, bank2 VCT duty cycle-091E, Cam/Crank Sync signal-09CD, Cam Position Fault Mode-1107).
Requested retard is at ZERO at idle (with or without CAMSYNC or CPMFM)- and must equate to ZERO Duty Cycle on VCT2 - must equate to ZERO cam error on CAM2. If there is cam error (over retard) on cam2 - it is NOT returning to base position and locking. P0022= > 5º over retard for > 5 seconds. (That could be electrical fault keeping VCT2 open, sticking solenoid, trash in passage ways, bad/binding cam2 journals or rotational resistance that cannot be overcome by residual idle oil pressure. These can be accomplished with a scanner that allows inputting specific PID number and formula such as Torque Pro. Example with PIDs/formulas:https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...4/#post5133357
2). Put an aftermarket oil pressure on and verify sufficient oil pressure, getting you down to either a bad VCT solenoid, bad Phaser, or excessive cam rotational resistance on bank 2, or dreaded plugged up oil passageway.
I know nothing about the "Precision Auto CNC" phasers. But I hope you didn't rely solely on the 'Advertising' statements on Freedom Racing's product page ........ which states:
Their Precision Auto CNC sells for $139.99 ;;;;;;; and has the Notation:
ATTENTION: Over the years we've carried many brands of 3V phasers. Based on customer feedback and warranty claim rates, we believe Precision Auto CNC AM-3R2Z-6A257-DA offer the absolute best quality and reliability in the market. Ford OEM 3R2Z-6A257-DA seem to be almost as good as the Precision Auto CNC phasers but issues are slightly more common. We've had an extremely high warranty claim rate on Dorman phasers and other aftermarket brands, so we don't recommend them.
Their FORD OEM (Pair) sells for $427.76 ///// and has the following Notation:
ATTENTION: Over the years we've carried many brands of 3V phasers. Based on customer feedback and warranty claim rates, we believe Precision Auto CNC AM-3R2Z-6A257-DA offer the absolute best quality and reliability in the market. Ford OEM 3R2Z-6A257-DA seem to be almost as good as the Precision Auto CNC phasers but issues are slightly more common.
------
I hope not but you could be one adding to the wrong side of their statics.
Thanks again for the reply,
I am going to work on getting an oil pressure reading today if I can.
What scanner would I need in order to get this type of data logging?
As far as the Precision CNC phasers go, the price wasn't my deciding factor on them. I was initially planning on putting lockouts in, but after the timing tone fingers gear came off during the lockout installation i realized that I needed a new phaser. Since I had to purchase on anyway I decided to try replacing all the components of the VCT system so that I could try an use the factory design. I needed them asap and discovered that only Freedom Racing could get them to me overnight. When I called them their salesperson swore up and down that they had far less failures of the Precision CNC phasers over the stock ones. Wanting to put the "best" parts in, in order to only do this job once, i decided that this would be the better option. The price was just a bonus. I hope i wasn't wrong.
02-06-2017, 12:46 PM
#19
Moderator
Thanks again for the reply,
I am going to work on getting an oil pressure reading today if I can.
What scanner would I need in order to get this type of data logging?
As far as the Precision CNC phasers go, the price wasn't my deciding factor on them. I was initially planning on putting lockouts in, but after the timing tone fingers gear came off during the lockout installation i realized that I needed a new phaser. Since I had to purchase on anyway I decided to try replacing all the components of the VCT system so that I could try an use the factory design. I needed them asap and discovered that only Freedom Racing could get them to me overnight. When I called them their salesperson swore up and down that they had far less failures of the Precision CNC phasers over the stock ones. Wanting to put the "best" parts in, in order to only do this job once, i decided that this would be the better option. The price was just a bonus. I hope i wasn't wrong.
I am going to work on getting an oil pressure reading today if I can.
What scanner would I need in order to get this type of data logging?
As far as the Precision CNC phasers go, the price wasn't my deciding factor on them. I was initially planning on putting lockouts in, but after the timing tone fingers gear came off during the lockout installation i realized that I needed a new phaser. Since I had to purchase on anyway I decided to try replacing all the components of the VCT system so that I could try an use the factory design. I needed them asap and discovered that only Freedom Racing could get them to me overnight. When I called them their salesperson swore up and down that they had far less failures of the Precision CNC phasers over the stock ones. Wanting to put the "best" parts in, in order to only do this job once, i decided that this would be the better option. The price was just a bonus. I hope i wasn't wrong.
Im not sure what Torqued will recommend but I know he is a master with the Torque Pro Android App and a good capable reader. If you have an Android device then this app with this reader will do amazing things! https://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Products...ords=bafx+obd2
02-06-2017, 12:48 PM
#20
Oil pressure is a good place to start. It is a possibility that you have a clogged port. I don't remember did you run any cleaner though the engine? If so it can sometimes break a chuck loose and plug up a port or a VCT solenoid. Or possibly a piece of your chain guide may have gotten stuck somewhere. If the oil pressure is low at hot idle then you could check the pickup tube again and see if it is clogged also you could check the screens on the VCT solenoids to see if they are plugged up.
I am going to work on getting Oil PSI info asap, I did not run cleaner through the engine first. I am on the fence about running this thing long enough to reach hot idle with it running so poorly. If it is excessively rich i don't want to burn up the cat in the process. I found most if not all of the plastic pieces of the timing chain guide, I would say that it would be very unlikely that a piece big enough to clog the pickup still remained in the engine. You have a very good point about pulling the VCTs to see if there is anything clogging the screens. Unfortunately with my year that means taking off the valve covers again...