Flush or not to Flush
08-28-2009, 09:16 AM
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Flush or not to Flush
I have a 2006 F150 with a ESP warranty with 32k miles and the dealer is now installing a brand new tranny from Ford. At 26k I had the tranny flush done (recommended by the dealer and not by me) At 30k It started missing 2nd gear...took it in and they said my ball check was bad in the valve body...replaced under warranty. At 32k miles the tranny starts acting up again, I take it in the next day and the ford dealer tells me my tranny is fried. They mentioned that my 17X9 wheels with 305's tires may have caused this and ford will not cover it. Ford sends out a adjuster to check my truck but before he gets there the service guy calls me at tell me to bring in my stock wheels to swap out so there are no red flags when the adjuster comes. All goes okay and they receive the approval from ford for a brand new tranny for my truck. I will never get a tranny flush again because I believe that is what caused this whole mess.
A New "Recommended" Maintenance Item...
In the last few years you were probably asked, or told, by you dealer or quick lube place that you need an engine or transmission flush, because the engine oil or transmission fluid is very dirty. They will tell you that it is recommended that you have it done because your engine or transmission will last longer if it is flushed clean. In that they are correct, a clean engine and transmission will last longer. But is flushing the best way to get a dirty engine clean?
What Is An Engine Or Transmission Flush?
Flushing is the high pressure forcing of fluid back against the normal flow of the fluid. In other words if the normal flow is left to right, the flush would force the fluid right to left. This is accomplished by connecting a machine that will force special solvents back through the engine and transmission. The idea is that by forcing cleaning solvents backwards through the system, it will get all the junk and garbage that has formed over time and "flush" it out of the system. In theory this may be sound, but in actual practice, it's dangerous.
The Dangers Of Flushing...
Flush machines do what they say; they force high pressure cleaning solvents back through the engine and transmission and clean out some of the accumulated junk that has formed. Now engines have small passages and galleries through which oil or automatic transmission fluid flow and there are one-way valves that keep the fluids from backtracking for whatever reason. By using an aggressive cleaning procedure like flushing, large chunks of accumulated sludge are broken off and forced backwards through these galleries and valves and, more often than not, lodge tightly and block them. This cuts off the normal flow of the fluid and causes lack of lubrication in an engine and abnormal or no shifting in a transmission. The results are expensive repairs, or more often, engine or transmission replacement.
Who Recommends Flushing As Maintenance?
The shops that want to sell you the engine or transmission flush charge anywhere from $49.95 to $99.95, not including a new engine or transmission. Those are extra. And they state quite emphatically that it is recommended that it be done. But who actually recommends that it be done? I checked with GM, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, Honda and several other new car manufacturers and not one recommended an engine or transmission flush as routine maintenance. In fact, they specifically don't recommend it at all!! The new car dealerships that do sell them use the implication that since they are the dealer that it must be the factory that recommends it. And if they do say the factory recommends it, they are flat out lying to you.
The only ones who do recommend flushing as a maintenance procedure are the companies that sell the flush machines and the shops that buy them. The flush machine manufacturers state quite clearly in their operating manuals not to use their machines on "high-mileage vehicles". That simple statement proves that flushing is not a safe procedure. It also absolves them of any responsibility of any damage that may occur due to the use of their equipment. This leaves the shop wholly responsible for anything that happens and the cost of correcting the damage that occurs.
I know this since I recently appeared as a witness in a lawsuit where a person was sold an engine flush that destroyed his engine.
The Facts...
The fact is, if you do frequent engine oil and filter changes and service the transmission every 15,000 miles there is no need for a flush. I have customers that change their oil every 3,000 miles and they don't need to use fancy oils and filters, and after over 100,000 miles, the oil comes out almost as clean as it goes in. They have regular transmission services and their transmission still shifts like new, even with well over 100,000 miles on it.
If you have neglected regular oil changes and you want to do some interior engine cleaning, get the oil and filter changed and replace one quart of motor oil for one quart of transmission fluid. The transmission fluid has a high detergent content that will clean the engine without damaging it. Do this every 3,000 miles and you will clean the inside of the engine slowly and gently.
If you do get a flush, I recommend you do it when you can afford to replace the engine or transmission.
A New "Recommended" Maintenance Item...
In the last few years you were probably asked, or told, by you dealer or quick lube place that you need an engine or transmission flush, because the engine oil or transmission fluid is very dirty. They will tell you that it is recommended that you have it done because your engine or transmission will last longer if it is flushed clean. In that they are correct, a clean engine and transmission will last longer. But is flushing the best way to get a dirty engine clean?
What Is An Engine Or Transmission Flush?
Flushing is the high pressure forcing of fluid back against the normal flow of the fluid. In other words if the normal flow is left to right, the flush would force the fluid right to left. This is accomplished by connecting a machine that will force special solvents back through the engine and transmission. The idea is that by forcing cleaning solvents backwards through the system, it will get all the junk and garbage that has formed over time and "flush" it out of the system. In theory this may be sound, but in actual practice, it's dangerous.
The Dangers Of Flushing...
Flush machines do what they say; they force high pressure cleaning solvents back through the engine and transmission and clean out some of the accumulated junk that has formed. Now engines have small passages and galleries through which oil or automatic transmission fluid flow and there are one-way valves that keep the fluids from backtracking for whatever reason. By using an aggressive cleaning procedure like flushing, large chunks of accumulated sludge are broken off and forced backwards through these galleries and valves and, more often than not, lodge tightly and block them. This cuts off the normal flow of the fluid and causes lack of lubrication in an engine and abnormal or no shifting in a transmission. The results are expensive repairs, or more often, engine or transmission replacement.
Who Recommends Flushing As Maintenance?
The shops that want to sell you the engine or transmission flush charge anywhere from $49.95 to $99.95, not including a new engine or transmission. Those are extra. And they state quite emphatically that it is recommended that it be done. But who actually recommends that it be done? I checked with GM, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, Honda and several other new car manufacturers and not one recommended an engine or transmission flush as routine maintenance. In fact, they specifically don't recommend it at all!! The new car dealerships that do sell them use the implication that since they are the dealer that it must be the factory that recommends it. And if they do say the factory recommends it, they are flat out lying to you.
The only ones who do recommend flushing as a maintenance procedure are the companies that sell the flush machines and the shops that buy them. The flush machine manufacturers state quite clearly in their operating manuals not to use their machines on "high-mileage vehicles". That simple statement proves that flushing is not a safe procedure. It also absolves them of any responsibility of any damage that may occur due to the use of their equipment. This leaves the shop wholly responsible for anything that happens and the cost of correcting the damage that occurs.
I know this since I recently appeared as a witness in a lawsuit where a person was sold an engine flush that destroyed his engine.
The Facts...
The fact is, if you do frequent engine oil and filter changes and service the transmission every 15,000 miles there is no need for a flush. I have customers that change their oil every 3,000 miles and they don't need to use fancy oils and filters, and after over 100,000 miles, the oil comes out almost as clean as it goes in. They have regular transmission services and their transmission still shifts like new, even with well over 100,000 miles on it.
If you have neglected regular oil changes and you want to do some interior engine cleaning, get the oil and filter changed and replace one quart of motor oil for one quart of transmission fluid. The transmission fluid has a high detergent content that will clean the engine without damaging it. Do this every 3,000 miles and you will clean the inside of the engine slowly and gently.
If you do get a flush, I recommend you do it when you can afford to replace the engine or transmission.
Last edited by Li432Paul; 08-28-2009 at 09:19 AM.
08-28-2009, 10:33 AM
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There are a couple of different trans flush machines. One that has a pump in the machine that is high pressure and the other uses the trans (with engine running) pump to flush the transmission. The one that has it's own pump in the machine is not recommended to use. The machine that uses the trans pump is recommended by Ford. As your post says, the high pressure pump in the trans fluid can blow out seals and mess the transmission up. I highly recommended to find someone that has a machine that uses your trucks enigine and trans pump to flush the transmission out. If you just drain the pain, you are missing at least 6 to 7 quarts of dirty trans fluid. I have a '04 F150 4X4 and I have already flushed the trans once . My truck has 71,000 miles on it and never had any problems.
08-28-2009, 10:49 AM
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We also have various fluid "exchange" machines at work, we do 10-15 trans services a week, never having problems. If there is a pre-existing condition, a fluid replacement may not be the best idea, but when used as preventative maint., it is highly reccomended.
08-28-2009, 02:30 PM
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So what about the machine they have at quick lubes now....pretty much they stick a tube in through the transmission fluid cap under you hood....suck out all your fluid and replace with new..... there is no high pressure at all,,,,,
is that a good thing or a bad thing?
is that a good thing or a bad thing?
08-29-2009, 08:36 AM
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Who did your flush? My Ford dealer did mine, using the transmission's pump to expell all old while replenising with new. And for the record, it is part of your Ford recommended service, sometime after 75K on the odometer.
Adding transmission fluid to the engine for it's detergents? Modern oils have their own detergents. This has to be an old article frome about 20 years ago.
While I'll agree from the article you posted that "reverse flushing" may not the way to go, having your transmission fluid completely changed is still important to get the most mileage out of it. Who is the auther of this article? Can you post the link to it?
Those reading this post who are scared, don't be. If done right, all fluid is removed and replenished with new transmission fluid; the only way to go. Dropping a pan and adding a filter and 4 quarts of transmission fluid is not a complete change for a transmission. Automatic transmissions can hold over 9 quarts (torque converter cannot be drained individually like they used to be).
Adding transmission fluid to the engine for it's detergents? Modern oils have their own detergents. This has to be an old article frome about 20 years ago.
While I'll agree from the article you posted that "reverse flushing" may not the way to go, having your transmission fluid completely changed is still important to get the most mileage out of it. Who is the auther of this article? Can you post the link to it?
Those reading this post who are scared, don't be. If done right, all fluid is removed and replenished with new transmission fluid; the only way to go. Dropping a pan and adding a filter and 4 quarts of transmission fluid is not a complete change for a transmission. Automatic transmissions can hold over 9 quarts (torque converter cannot be drained individually like they used to be).
Last edited by Mod (Ret.); 08-29-2009 at 08:42 AM.
08-30-2009, 01:05 AM
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My local Ford dealer did the tranny flush. I don't know what they used to flush it but it cost me $250 for the flush. I don't know who wrote the article I'll try to locate it but I read so many articles it may be difficult to locate. My old 99 GMC jimmy had the tranny flush by the GMC dealer at 50k and at 70k the tranny went. Now my F150. I'm done with tranny flushes...never again on any of my vehicles. From now on drop the pan...filter and fluid change only.
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08-30-2009, 10:29 AM
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Your choice. It appears these Ford automatic transmisions are a weak point (do a search; many have replaced them without flushing).
Keep in mind that a transmission pan drop and filter change only removes 4 quarts and a filter. As soon as you start the engine and get the transmission pump running, those 4 quarts are mixed with 5 quarts of dirty oil. Now thats a waste of money.
Would you remove your engine oil without a filter without a filter change, or just remove 3 quarts of engine oil and replace with 3 quarts of replacement oil? I know you wouldn't.
Please continue to research the transmission issue. You will find that an automatic transmission flush using the correct method is the only way to obtain a full fluid change; something that is required for automatic transmission fluid changes. You cannot expect 9 quarts of oil to maintain an automatic transmission over 75 to 80K miles without breakdown or impending failure; certainly not over 100K without transmission troubles. Sooner if you tow. My wifes BMW has so called "life time" fluid in the transmission. Even the BMW techs say this is the dumbest thing to attempt to convince the average buyer. If your one to think that "lifetime" is 100K, then your good to go. But if you want longer life out of the automatic transmission, then the fluid has to be replaced; all of it.
I've had many trucks in my time; all have had transmission flushes at various mileage, depending on the trucks use (towing, etc). I've yet to ever have an automatic transmission fail to date.
It does however seem that these newer Fords have a weak link with their automatics. I've read more than average failures with them.
Keep in mind that a transmission pan drop and filter change only removes 4 quarts and a filter. As soon as you start the engine and get the transmission pump running, those 4 quarts are mixed with 5 quarts of dirty oil. Now thats a waste of money.
Would you remove your engine oil without a filter without a filter change, or just remove 3 quarts of engine oil and replace with 3 quarts of replacement oil? I know you wouldn't.
Please continue to research the transmission issue. You will find that an automatic transmission flush using the correct method is the only way to obtain a full fluid change; something that is required for automatic transmission fluid changes. You cannot expect 9 quarts of oil to maintain an automatic transmission over 75 to 80K miles without breakdown or impending failure; certainly not over 100K without transmission troubles. Sooner if you tow. My wifes BMW has so called "life time" fluid in the transmission. Even the BMW techs say this is the dumbest thing to attempt to convince the average buyer. If your one to think that "lifetime" is 100K, then your good to go. But if you want longer life out of the automatic transmission, then the fluid has to be replaced; all of it.
I've had many trucks in my time; all have had transmission flushes at various mileage, depending on the trucks use (towing, etc). I've yet to ever have an automatic transmission fail to date.
It does however seem that these newer Fords have a weak link with their automatics. I've read more than average failures with them.
Last edited by Mod (Ret.); 08-30-2009 at 10:35 AM.
04-11-2010, 09:07 AM
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I know this is an old thread but I was reading up on transmission flushing debates when I found this and the link that Bucko requested on who wrote the article about not flushing. Didn't know if you were still interested but thought I would post it for you anyways.
http://autotechrepair.suite101.com/article.cfm/040206
http://autotechrepair.suite101.com/article.cfm/040206