Edge problem after plug change
03-05-2014, 04:10 PM
#1
Black & Chrome
Thread Starter
Edge problem after plug change
So I finally decided to get my plugs done at 97k while I was having some other work done. After getting the plugs changed I was noticing some misfires while I was at low rpm's just chugging along. I know a ford mechanic that does work on the side, so he is well aware of this issues with them. I met him back at his shop and he hooked up his scanner and found that I had a bad misfire on #6. We took it for a quick test drive and also noticed a couple misfires on #5 and #2, so we headed back to the shop. Here's what we did after that...
1) Took plug #6 out and found that a large piece of the metal sleeve was broken off and the electrode was gone.
2) Put a new plug back in #6 and drove it again. Still got some misfires on #6 and couple other random misfires, although they seemed to be concentrated on #6. Pulled the plug and the metal sleeve showed signs that it was starting to break again.
3) Swapped the plugs on #6 & #5 and also on #1 & #2. Still got misfires on #6.
4) Swapped the COP's on #5 & #6. Still had misfires on #6.
5) When we first changed the plugs, there were some small porcelain pieces that we couldn't get out of #6, tried blowing them out with compressed air with no luck, so we cranked the motor to blow them out. #6 also tightened down harder than all the rest, where the rest would go easily all the way in and then just snug them up, this one had some resistance on the way down and then had to snug it up.
6) He put his scanner on and checked all the injectors (all working properly), checked the fuel rail pressure (all normal). He also noticed there was an update for the PCM, so he flashed it with the update.
7) He worked plug #6 in an out a few times and applied never seize a couple times to see if maybe it was not getting seated properly. He ended up cranking a little harder on this one and it seemed to be seated.
8) Took it for a drive again and it seemed to be running without misfires now.
9) Ran it for a day or so with the new stock tune and then tried to put the Edge #2 tow tune back on. It started running bad instantly. It sounded fine at idle, but when I gave it some gas, you can hear the exhaust has some pauses in it like it's misfiring (or maybe running lean?), although it was not shaking the truck like when the plug on #6 was blown.
10) Checked for codes and had 4 of them...
P0600 - Serial Communication Link
P2100 - Throttle Actuator Control (TAC) Motor Circuit / Open
P2105 - Throttle Actuator control (TAC) System - Forced Engine Shutdown
U0300 - Internal Control Module Software Incompatibility
I did a little research and it looked like my Edge firmware might be out of date with the new stock tune that he put on, so I checked for updates on my Edge. Sure enough, there was an update available, so I put in on and tried to run the #2 tune again. At first it seemed like that fixed the problem, but then the misfires (or whatever was going on) came back. It didn't throw any codes though.
So now I have the stock tune back on it and it was running fine until today, when two different times I had it start shaking like when the plug was blown, just not quite as violent. I really don't know how to proceed at this point. I don't know if I still have plug issues, maybe I need new COP boots, or COP's and boots. Could it be issues between the new stock tune he put on it and the firmware version that is on my Edge. If getting new COP's and boots is what it will take, I'm fine with that, but I just don't want to throw ~$400 bucks into it and then that really wasn't the problem.
Also, I ran my Edge on Tow Mode before the plug change and never had any issues. I'm just trying to figure out why it's not running with that tune now.
Thoughts anyone??
1) Took plug #6 out and found that a large piece of the metal sleeve was broken off and the electrode was gone.
2) Put a new plug back in #6 and drove it again. Still got some misfires on #6 and couple other random misfires, although they seemed to be concentrated on #6. Pulled the plug and the metal sleeve showed signs that it was starting to break again.
3) Swapped the plugs on #6 & #5 and also on #1 & #2. Still got misfires on #6.
4) Swapped the COP's on #5 & #6. Still had misfires on #6.
5) When we first changed the plugs, there were some small porcelain pieces that we couldn't get out of #6, tried blowing them out with compressed air with no luck, so we cranked the motor to blow them out. #6 also tightened down harder than all the rest, where the rest would go easily all the way in and then just snug them up, this one had some resistance on the way down and then had to snug it up.
6) He put his scanner on and checked all the injectors (all working properly), checked the fuel rail pressure (all normal). He also noticed there was an update for the PCM, so he flashed it with the update.
7) He worked plug #6 in an out a few times and applied never seize a couple times to see if maybe it was not getting seated properly. He ended up cranking a little harder on this one and it seemed to be seated.
8) Took it for a drive again and it seemed to be running without misfires now.
9) Ran it for a day or so with the new stock tune and then tried to put the Edge #2 tow tune back on. It started running bad instantly. It sounded fine at idle, but when I gave it some gas, you can hear the exhaust has some pauses in it like it's misfiring (or maybe running lean?), although it was not shaking the truck like when the plug on #6 was blown.
10) Checked for codes and had 4 of them...
P0600 - Serial Communication Link
P2100 - Throttle Actuator Control (TAC) Motor Circuit / Open
P2105 - Throttle Actuator control (TAC) System - Forced Engine Shutdown
U0300 - Internal Control Module Software Incompatibility
I did a little research and it looked like my Edge firmware might be out of date with the new stock tune that he put on, so I checked for updates on my Edge. Sure enough, there was an update available, so I put in on and tried to run the #2 tune again. At first it seemed like that fixed the problem, but then the misfires (or whatever was going on) came back. It didn't throw any codes though.
So now I have the stock tune back on it and it was running fine until today, when two different times I had it start shaking like when the plug was blown, just not quite as violent. I really don't know how to proceed at this point. I don't know if I still have plug issues, maybe I need new COP boots, or COP's and boots. Could it be issues between the new stock tune he put on it and the firmware version that is on my Edge. If getting new COP's and boots is what it will take, I'm fine with that, but I just don't want to throw ~$400 bucks into it and then that really wasn't the problem.
Also, I ran my Edge on Tow Mode before the plug change and never had any issues. I'm just trying to figure out why it's not running with that tune now.
Thoughts anyone??
03-05-2014, 04:24 PM
#2
Hi.
If it's acting up with the Stock tune it's not the Edge. ( You did return to stock prior to him reflashing correct?)
The basics.
Remove the plugs and inspect them for fouling.
Use NEW COP boots and apply dielectric correctly.
If you can isolate which cylinders are consistently misfiring after that, try moving the COP(s) to confirm the misfire code moves to indicate the COP is at fault and then replace those with either Motorcraft of Visteon only (NO Accel or fleabay crap).
He used MC SP515 plugs, right?
Good luck
MGD
If it's acting up with the Stock tune it's not the Edge. ( You did return to stock prior to him reflashing correct?)
The basics.
Remove the plugs and inspect them for fouling.
Use NEW COP boots and apply dielectric correctly.
If you can isolate which cylinders are consistently misfiring after that, try moving the COP(s) to confirm the misfire code moves to indicate the COP is at fault and then replace those with either Motorcraft of Visteon only (NO Accel or fleabay crap).
He used MC SP515 plugs, right?
Good luck
MGD
Last edited by MGD; 03-05-2014 at 04:30 PM.
03-05-2014, 04:36 PM
#3
Black & Chrome
Thread Starter
Hi.
If it's acting up with the Stock tune it's not the Edge. ( You did return to stock prior to him reflashing correct?)
The basics.
Remove the plugs and inspect them for fouling.
Use NEW COP boots and apply dielectric correctly.
If you can isolate which cylinders are consistently misfiring after that, try moving the COP(s) to confirm the misfire code moves to indicate the COP is at fault and then replace those with either Motorcraft of Visteon only (NO Accel or fleabay crap).
He used MC SP515 plugs, right?
Good luck
MGD
If it's acting up with the Stock tune it's not the Edge. ( You did return to stock prior to him reflashing correct?)
The basics.
Remove the plugs and inspect them for fouling.
Use NEW COP boots and apply dielectric correctly.
If you can isolate which cylinders are consistently misfiring after that, try moving the COP(s) to confirm the misfire code moves to indicate the COP is at fault and then replace those with either Motorcraft of Visteon only (NO Accel or fleabay crap).
He used MC SP515 plugs, right?
Good luck
MGD
Other than the 4 codes I mentioned in my original post, I have not had 1 single code thrown for a misfire, even with his Ford Diagnostic Scanner and even when the plug in #6 had a piece of the metal sleeve missing and no electrode...no codes.
Yes, we put the Motorcraft plugs back in it.
I don't think he used any dielectric grease when he installed the new plugs.
03-05-2014, 05:57 PM
#4
Yes, I returned to stock before he flashed it. For the last 7-10 days, I have never noticed any issues running the stock tune. The only time I noticed anything was running Tow Mode #2 on the Edge. I went back and forth a few times to see if it would ever act up with the stock tune. However, today I had 2 separate times when it acted up just a little running the stock tune. It felt similar to when it acted up running the stock tune and the blown plug in #6, but the shaking up front just wasn't as bad. Both times were starting up and taking off while the motor was cold. The first time was before coming to work this morning, second time was going to lunch, and then coming back from lunch the motor was still warm and I didn't notice anything.
Other than the 4 codes I mentioned in my original post, I have not had 1 single code thrown for a misfire, even with his Ford Diagnostic Scanner and even when the plug in #6 had a piece of the metal sleeve missing and no electrode...no codes.
Yes, we put the Motorcraft plugs back in it.
I don't think he used any dielectric grease when he installed the new plugs.
Other than the 4 codes I mentioned in my original post, I have not had 1 single code thrown for a misfire, even with his Ford Diagnostic Scanner and even when the plug in #6 had a piece of the metal sleeve missing and no electrode...no codes.
Yes, we put the Motorcraft plugs back in it.
I don't think he used any dielectric grease when he installed the new plugs.
Did he pull the suspect cylinder's plug(s)? Confirm SP-515's? How much hi-temp nickle A/S was used on the shank - too much can migrate down and foul the tip ( which is why I said to pull & inspect).
Did he check Mode $06 data for misfire counts (No CEL set).
It's not the Edge - but the aftermarket tuning is likely going to act up further from a pre-existing condition ( Edge leans out the A/F's in Open Loop, alter when Open loop occurs, changes the timing 'curve', among a host of other things to make power. ).
You (still) have ignition issues, methinks. Good thing I do these jobs myself, lol. I'll stop now as I don't think yer really listening. Or he isn't. How is one supposed to trust a mechanic who does not know enough to use danged dielectric on a Ford COP ignition system?
BTW last piece of advice: - ensure that when you reload any tuning from the Edge that ALL 'custom settings' have been erased first - in other words return the unit to 'Factory' Default settings. Then after loading, enter the changes you wish. You have a New strategy code in yer PCM now.
MGD out.
Last edited by MGD; 03-05-2014 at 06:02 PM.
03-05-2014, 06:28 PM
#5
Black & Chrome
Thread Starter
No dielectric? Original boots? You can purty much count on misfires from this point forward. The COP ignitions on these trucks can just about ignite water - why do you think Ford sell and specifies dielectric use?
Did he pull the suspect cylinder's plug(s)? Confirm SP-515's? How much hi-temp nickle A/S was used on the shank - too much can migrate down and foul the tip ( which is why I said to pull & inspect).
Did he check Mode $06 data for misfire counts (No CEL set).
It's not the Edge - but the aftermarket tuning is likely going to act up further from a pre-existing condition ( Edge leans out the A/F's in Open Loop, alter when Open loop occurs, changes the timing 'curve', among a host of other things to make power. ).
You (still) have ignition issues, methinks. Good thing I do these jobs myself, lol. I'll stop now as I don't think yer really listening. Or he isn't. How is one supposed to trust a mechanic who does not know enough to use danged dielectric on a Ford COP ignition system?
BTW last piece of advice: - ensure that when you reload any tuning from the Edge that ALL 'custom settings' have been erased first - in other words return the unit to 'Factory' Default settings. Then after loading, enter the changes you wish. You have a New strategy code in yer PCM now.
MGD out.
Did he pull the suspect cylinder's plug(s)? Confirm SP-515's? How much hi-temp nickle A/S was used on the shank - too much can migrate down and foul the tip ( which is why I said to pull & inspect).
Did he check Mode $06 data for misfire counts (No CEL set).
It's not the Edge - but the aftermarket tuning is likely going to act up further from a pre-existing condition ( Edge leans out the A/F's in Open Loop, alter when Open loop occurs, changes the timing 'curve', among a host of other things to make power. ).
You (still) have ignition issues, methinks. Good thing I do these jobs myself, lol. I'll stop now as I don't think yer really listening. Or he isn't. How is one supposed to trust a mechanic who does not know enough to use danged dielectric on a Ford COP ignition system?
BTW last piece of advice: - ensure that when you reload any tuning from the Edge that ALL 'custom settings' have been erased first - in other words return the unit to 'Factory' Default settings. Then after loading, enter the changes you wish. You have a New strategy code in yer PCM now.
MGD out.
I've done my research on this forum about how to do it and he didn't follow all the procedures I was expecting. I didn't want to attempt, 1) because I don't have all the correct tools to do it and I would still be cursing up a storm trying to get them out without any flex ratchets and 2) because I didn't want to get one stuck and have to tow it to a shop and then pay to have the heads removed to get it out. It was easier to let him do it because he's done a ton of them before and he had the tools.
I thought he put a lot of anti seize on #6 when he was working it in and out. Applied 2-3 times.
I don't know if he checked Mode $06 data.
Yes, I'm listening. I'm asking for help, and yes, I know he didn't follow the procedure that has been discussed here.
Every time I change tunes, I go back to stock and then set the tune....back to stock...set tune, etc. That's the procedure I have always used.
So basically from this point, should I pull and check all plugs (replace if fouled), put 8 new boots on, dielectric in the boots (does this go in the plug end with the spring or on the coil end?), anti seize the threads, and try again?
03-05-2014, 09:23 PM
#6
Senior Member
I don't think your Edge is the issue either. To make things easier on yourself and the folks trying to fix this, both your mechanic and on this forum, return to factory, and stay that way until you have a week or two of flawless performance.
Using a tune while diagnosing a problem tends to let mechanics blame the tune, when they should be looking elsewhere. I actually pulled my unit from the truck to make sure the mechanic didn't get distracted.
Using a tune while diagnosing a problem tends to let mechanics blame the tune, when they should be looking elsewhere. I actually pulled my unit from the truck to make sure the mechanic didn't get distracted.
03-05-2014, 09:53 PM
#7
Black & Chrome
Thread Starter
I don't think your Edge is the issue either. To make things easier on yourself and the folks trying to fix this, both your mechanic and on this forum, return to factory, and stay that way until you have a week or two of flawless performance.
Using a tune while diagnosing a problem tends to let mechanics blame the tune, when they should be looking elsewhere. I actually pulled my unit from the truck to make sure the mechanic didn't get distracted.
Using a tune while diagnosing a problem tends to let mechanics blame the tune, when they should be looking elsewhere. I actually pulled my unit from the truck to make sure the mechanic didn't get distracted.
I don't completely understand what the Edge does when I set it to Tow Mode. I'm assuming it kind of takes the stock tune and modifies it to some degree, depending on what settings I enter. The other option would be to completely write over the stock tune, but I don't feel like this is the case. To take that further, by him flashing the PCM with an updated tune and then once I updated my Edge to the latest firmware, I don't know if there could be compatibility issues there or not. I would say not, but I can't say that with 100% certainty.
My gut feeling is that there is still an issue with the way he installed the new plugs. No dielectric grease on the boots and no anti-sieze on the plugs. Also, he reused the boots, which I asked if I should buy them too, and he said I wouldn't need them. Then, once he replaced the blown plug with a new one and we test drove it, the new plug started to crack just a little and he swapped that with plug #5, so it's still in the truck.
Until the 2 brief issues today running the stock tune, it seemed to be running normal. With the roads absolutely destroyed from the plows this winter, it's really hard to tell if the vibrations I'm feeling are slight misfires or if it's just the road, so I just assumed it's the roads. Once I swapped the tow tune for the stock tune, I feel like it is magnifying the underlying problem and making it noticeable. So if it weren't for having the Edge and trying to run tow mode, I would probably think everything was running as it should be now.
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03-06-2014, 06:49 AM
#8
Mark
iTrader: (1)
have you checked the condition of your FPDM ??
03-06-2014, 07:45 AM
#9
Black & Chrome
Thread Starter
03-06-2014, 09:30 AM
#10
Yes, I've had a few problems with mine and I have never believed that the tuner was the problem. Any time that I took it to a shop, I would return it to stock and remove the tuner from the truck. Then once I got it back, I would add the tuner back in. I don't completely understand what the Edge does when I set it to Tow Mode. I'm assuming it kind of takes the stock tune and modifies it to some degree, depending on what settings I enter. The other option would be to completely write over the stock tune, but I don't feel like this is the case. To take that further, by him flashing the PCM with an updated tune and then once I updated my Edge to the latest firmware, I don't know if there could be compatibility issues there or not. I would say not, but I can't say that with 100% certainty. My gut feeling is that there is still an issue with the way he installed the new plugs. No dielectric grease on the boots and no anti-sieze on the plugs. Also, he reused the boots, which I asked if I should buy them too, and he said I wouldn't need them. Then, once he replaced the blown plug with a new one and we test drove it, the new plug started to crack just a little and he swapped that with plug #5, so it's still in the truck. Until the 2 brief issues today running the stock tune, it seemed to be running normal. With the roads absolutely destroyed from the plows this winter, it's really hard to tell if the vibrations I'm feeling are slight misfires or if it's just the road, so I just assumed it's the roads. Once I swapped the tow tune for the stock tune, I feel like it is magnifying the underlying problem and making it noticeable. So if it weren't for having the Edge and trying to run tow mode, I would probably think everything was running as it should be now.
Also.... check the battery terminals for a good, clean and tight connection.
Check the cop connectors on each cop, and seriously consider pulling every plug, and replacing them. (For the sp515.. Use the appropriate amount of anti-seize lubricant, and dielectric grease this time around..