wrvond

About to replace the stock oil pump on my 5.4 3v. My initial plan was to install a Melling M360 high pressure pump, but I spoke to George at Melling and discovered it is not a high volume pump, just high pressure. Ford Racing sells a high volume/high pressure pump (M-6600-F46) that I am now seriously considering (it even costs less than the Melling).
However, it has occured to me that there is a potential problem with high volume pumps, that is the possiblilty of pumping the oil pan dry before the oil can trickle back down from the top end of the engine. How likely is this to happen with a stock capacity oil pan? What if the truck is (for some reason) a quart low, what then? Perhaps a remote oil filter mount that accomodates two filters would increase capacity enough to compensate, what do you think?

fordguy91

I think anything over stock isn't needed. The oil pumps that come in the 3v engines are suppose to be high pressure/volume they pump more oil than the 2v pumps and the 4v pumps used on cobras so a stock replacement might be all that's needed. That's just my 2 cents.

F150Torqued

@wrvond


I've had similar questions concerning the prudence of going with a high volume / pressure oil pump. However, since the oil passages have a restrictor in the heads that restricts oil flow to the upper end to maintain proper pressure in the lower end. All those factors, as well as oil weight, are important design factors. Also, the bypass valve in the oil pump limits flow and simply bypasses excess oil at higher RPMs and pressures. I think if low end pressures were a problem, a higher volume / pressure pump would help.


An article that I ran across that I thought you might find informative is at https://www.authcom.com/choosing-the-right-oil-pump/


Also, I am curious, have you installed an aftermarket pressure gauge? And what does it run?


I have installed an oil pressure gauge on my 5.4L Triton with 200+k miles, and it maintains > 17 - 18 lbs at hot idle, in gear, with A/C on running 5W-20. I'm now thinking that is fine since as soon as RPMs rise to 800, pressure is already up to 35 lbs hot, and will run 50-60 at cruse speeds (1500 RPM). [[ Cold it bounces right up to 65-70 at idle]]. The ECU does NOT enable variable valve timing or request any retard until RPM's exceed about 800 and engine load exceeds about 25%. My oil pressure is fine under those conditions.

wrvond

Great article, thanks for sharing that. The information concerning centering the crank driven pumps alone is worth the read.
My problem is that my truck has developed the diesel tick, which I am convinced is caused by a loss of oil pressure at the timing chain tensioners and the VCT solenoids. Additionally, many people report damaged valve lash adjusters and valve actuators; most likely caused by low oil volume in the top end.
I intend to replace everything from the oil pump up to the lash adjusters and rockers, though I admittedly haven't opened the engine yet, I figure I need to ensure a more than adequate supply of oil to all these engine components since I spend a lot of time pulling a boat or camper through a lot of long, steep mountains.
Due to this reasoning, I have not invested in an oil pressure guage at this point. After completing repairs, I may go that route in order to know how well everything is working in the mountains under load.
One thing I do NOT want to do is repeat this repair in another 100,000 miles.

F150Torqued

@wrvond


A big 10-4 on the "information concerning centering the crank driven pumps...".


But respectfully Sir, if you have no drivability issues or DTC's or a derogatory oil pressure reading, I disagree that "low oil pressure at the timing chain tensioners and VCT solenoids" is the cause of the signature 5.4l dieseling sound and/or tick. My 2004 has 200,000+ miles on it and has sounded like a diesel and "ticked" ever since leaving the show room floor. (I took it back to the dealer w/in 30 days and they said "its normal, they all sound like that"). Its oil pressure readings are mentioned in post #3 above.


What I've learned: Oil pressure (at idle) is not expected to operate the variable valve timing system - even on a NEW engine or oil pump. In fact, this is confirmed by monitoring VCTENA [ OBDII PID # 16B1 bit 5 - Conditions Correct to Enable VTC, Bit on=YES/Bit off=NO ]. The PCM disables the variable valve timing system below about 1000 RPMs and below 25% engine load, and ceases to apply ANY duty cycle to the VCT Solenoids. In this relaxed (no applied duty cycle) state the VTC Solenoids route ALL oil flow into the phaser chambers to move the cams to their maximum "no retard" or fully advanced position.


In this idle or "default" position, spring loaded "locking pins" in the phasers lock the camshafts/phasers in the "no retard" or default position. At idle, with cams turning only 325 - 350 RPm (1/2 Crankshaft speed), the torque required to rotate the camshafts - rotational torque fluctuates radically as the lifter rollers pass over cam lobes and the valve springs are alternately compressed and pushes back. This fluctuating rotational load on the cams/phasers and locking pins generates the muffled "slapping" sound in the camshafts & phasers that is best described as a diesel sound. Occasionally this action results in these pins disintegrating and/or sheering. The diesel sound promptly disappears at around 1000 - 1200 RPMs because OIL pressure inherently comes up with increased R's, disengaging the locking pins - and the PCM activates VCTENA, allowing duty cycled voltage to again be applied to VCT Solenoids - and moves the phasers AWAY from the full retard end of their mechanical spectrum.


If you have no drivability issues or VVT system DTCs, I would embrace the noise as normal - go ahead and install an oil gauge now (if only for piece of mind), and drive it as usual. I do however strongly advocate maintenance on the VCT Solenoids - Replace them or at least frequently remove / clean / flush the fragile little screens and electrically test their actuation, and reinstall them. I also like to run a flush treatment every other oil change or so. EVERY time I have done these things, mine runs noticeably better & quieter.

A G R E E D ! But neither do we want to do the repair the first time if not necessary.


Good luck pulling that Boat and Trailer around the mountains !

wrvond

I'd be foolish to disagree!
I do believe I have drive ability issues in the form of reduced power and fuel mileage, though no codes.
Your explanation of the noise origin is interesting, I had thought it to be valves closing prematurely due to an "out of time" state. I see now that situation would surely result in DTCs of some sort.
An oil pressure gauge is a small expense with a great return. Do you have a suggestion on which would be best?

FWIW - my truck has not made this noise since new. It is only in the last year that it started, and in the last few months gotten louder, with a corresponding loss of power and fuel economy.
Going up a mountain (while towing) that I used to climb @2800 rpm now requires 3500 rpm, and mileage has dropped from 11mpg to 7mpg (again, while towing). Economy has also dropped significantly while unloaded.
This is the situation that leads me to believe there is something wrong in the first place.

F150Torqued

I am certainly no expert on the matter and equally as subject to falling prey to clever advertising and paying premium prices as anyone. But perhaps even eccentric in analysis. I choose the (rather expensive) MaxTow electronic analog/digital one. I'm very pleased with it and it mounted nicely by the center console and connected easily to Key On power and the gauge lite connected easily to the instrument cluster dimmer circuit. I'll try to attach a photo of the installation.


I understand and agree about the issue of reduced power and fuel mileage (without codes). I've got the same situation. But I wonder (on mine at least) just how much of that should be attributed to normal degradation of compression / and real power - and how much other factors play into it. One thing I KNOW from "hacking" the OBDII system with my OBDII scanner APP is that the PCM will (and does), under certain conditions, shut down the variable valve timing system for the remainder of that drive cycle!! I have set up an alarm on my scanner based on VCTENA OFF, and when it happens - I can feel the loss of power. At lower RPM's (around 1100 - 1300 - where these engines are designed to operate much of the time), the valve timing is usually at maximum retard - when everything is working right. As RPM's increase the PCM begins to back off on the retard setting toward its maximum "ADVANCE" or "NO RETARD" position. That of course, means that higher RPMs are required to get the engine in the proper operating range for the variable valve timing if it is "DISABLED" or shut OFF by the PCM.


I do NOT know (yet) what conditions result in the PCM "shutting down" the Variable Valve Timing system for the duration of that drive cycle (without setting a code). Another unanswered question that I have posed on three different forums is at: https://www.f150forum.com/f12/5-4l-p...dvance-300748/ They have cumulatively been viewed over a thousand total times with no answer so far ....??

I agree here too. But I've read enough threads where people (smarter than I am) have done all kinds of stuff and still complain about the same underlying issues. IF whatever causes the PCM to disable (or remove VCTENA status bit) is not removed (whatever it is), it would not matter HOW new the VVT hardware is or how much oil flow is coming out of the pump. It is the same as installing lockouts! I think it also relates to rough idle that we hear lots about. See http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/13...l#post15275759 As I mention in that post - I've had mine shut off the enable bit many times - and it does not lead to a valve timing DTC. If I pull over, shut it off and restart it - even within seconds - the increased power is back until VCTENA goes off the next time. ////Frustrating//// ///Confusing///, but I'm on its trail.


Your thoughts are welcomed - (I won't be offended even if you tell me I'm crazy)

tcp2

Thanks F150torqued for all the legwork. I think the real problem for a lot of people is less what the CPU is doing, but some mechanical issue that isn't monitored by any OBD parameter. Leaking guide tensioners have a tendency to reduce the available oil pressure to the solenoid/phasers, even when they are full open. The use of thin (won't debate that now) oils exacerbates the issue and the phaser pins (require hydraulic oil pressure to "lock") don't lock into place.

I tried a very thin oil once in my 2009. It caused an idle issue after a long highway run that never happened again with heavier oil. With a high quality 0w40 oil in it now, there is never any engine or valvetrain noises.

Thin oil experience

F150Torqued

Agreed. And I believe many (especially old geezers like myself from the days of the flathead engine) have tremendous difficulty grasping the phenomenal intelligence packed in the ECU of the modern vehicle.


I agree again. I installed the oil pressure gauge convinced the readings would be SAD. But as you can see from the above photo, post cold soak will run near 70 lbs at idle - and idle on hot TEXAS days, in gear, A/C on will not sag below 16-17, and will promptly rise on acceleration (by 800 RPM) to 35-40 and cruse at 55-60. This suggests to me that oil pump flow is adequate and the "lower end" is in good condition. HOWEVER...! I have NOW CONCLUDED that unfortunately, the gauge is not representative of valve train oil pressure for the reason you noted. Restrictors in oil passages in the heads would hold low end pressure while leaking tensioners (being aft restrictors) could sugnificantly drop post restrictor pressures.

One thing I have (curiously) observed watching the custom PIDs and gauges on my Torque Pro App is what is best described as a "lag" in the cams adjusting to the ECU requested retard ("RCAM"). When RCAM changes, UP or DOWN, cam error ("CAMERRR") bounces in the "opposite" direction, then drops back down to Zero, reaching ZERO degrees generally within 1 sec or less. I have NOT been able to determine how much of that lag is normal or tolerable. But I do know if I run in 2nd gear and jack radically with the accelerator pedal, I can "create" a DTC - almost always P0022.


I have tried 15W30 oil, but it exacerbates the "lag". I've never tired thinner oil. But based on your recommendation, I think I will try a change of quality 0w40 oil next change to see what effect it would have.


Thanks for the feedback, and the link.

wrvond

I imagine the lag you are seeing is simply the result of a feed back loop, and is unavoidable.


I did some looking around and decided I like the Max Tow gauge as well. However, since my brake controller is already under the dash, I'm going to use a Roush vent gauge pod - thanks for steering me in the right direction.


Read your other post, and I'm afraid you are way out of my league. I'm just happy if the truck doesn't generate any codes and runs right.