Bog in warm weather - ignition timing waaaay retarded
04-30-2016, 10:40 AM
#11
Member
Thread Starter
As a check, I unplugged both VCT solenoids the other evening. Doing this sets a code and causes the ECM to disable the VCT functions much like disabling it through a tuner. If it continues to act odd, then I can have some degree of certainty that the presence of the lockouts (and the associated P0011 and P0021 codes) are likely not the issue.
I tried to log some data yesterday but it was rainy and the OAT was only in the 50's. Consequently, the intake air temp maxed out in the 80's. The problem appeared to persist, but was not as pronounced because of the intake temps being 40-50 degrees cooler than the previous logs.. It is supposed to warm up today so I will try again.
EDIT: I just ran across another program similar to Torque except that it is specifically for Ford products. It is called FORScan and is available for Apple products as well as Andriod. Seems to be able to monitor a crap-ton of Ford specific data. I loaded the demo version and was pretty impressed.
http://forscan.org/download.html
I tried to log some data yesterday but it was rainy and the OAT was only in the 50's. Consequently, the intake air temp maxed out in the 80's. The problem appeared to persist, but was not as pronounced because of the intake temps being 40-50 degrees cooler than the previous logs.. It is supposed to warm up today so I will try again.
EDIT: I just ran across another program similar to Torque except that it is specifically for Ford products. It is called FORScan and is available for Apple products as well as Andriod. Seems to be able to monitor a crap-ton of Ford specific data. I loaded the demo version and was pretty impressed.
http://forscan.org/download.html
Last edited by BigBlockRanger; 04-30-2016 at 11:37 AM.
05-02-2016, 08:59 AM
#12
Member
Thread Starter
FORScan is pretty cool and is the app I will be using from now on.
I logged data on a drive downtown and back the other night. It's interesting and almost bizarre as to when the PCM decides to go open loop and when it decides to use the CMCV's (or IMRC's). Neither seem to act like I would think they should. Haha.
The search continues.
I logged data on a drive downtown and back the other night. It's interesting and almost bizarre as to when the PCM decides to go open loop and when it decides to use the CMCV's (or IMRC's). Neither seem to act like I would think they should. Haha.
The search continues.
05-03-2016, 07:43 AM
#13
Ford Man
I could only find the FORScan lite and demo on google play, where did you get the full version? I did load the torque lite and found I had P0171 and P0174 codes logged (lean banks 1 and 2) but no CEL. Searching those codes mostly said look for vacuum leaks, but I would that would affect idle more than running at cruise speeds. I am thinking a fuel pressure issue or flow rate issue now. I see the full verson of torque shows fuel rail pressure on your earlier post, does the FORScan monitor as well?
Last edited by JimWills; 05-03-2016 at 07:46 AM. Reason: added question about fuel pressure
05-03-2016, 08:42 AM
#14
Member
Thread Starter
FORCsan Lite is the one I am using, but I also downloaded the Windows version because it is free. Both include all the extended Ford PIDs (including fuel pressure) which is a pretty long list.
I am going to try to log data from a friend's good running 3v 5.4L Expedition as a baseline of what is 'normal' for these engines. I have been watching the various TPS signals lately and they do not seem to be as in sync as I would have expected. I probably should know if this is normal behavior before trying to correct it. Haha
I also an thinking of putting a potentiometer temporarily in place of the IAT to see what effect the intake air temp has on this bog issue. With the pot, I would be able to set the IAT to report whatever temp I want.
I am going to try to log data from a friend's good running 3v 5.4L Expedition as a baseline of what is 'normal' for these engines. I have been watching the various TPS signals lately and they do not seem to be as in sync as I would have expected. I probably should know if this is normal behavior before trying to correct it. Haha
I also an thinking of putting a potentiometer temporarily in place of the IAT to see what effect the intake air temp has on this bog issue. With the pot, I would be able to set the IAT to report whatever temp I want.
05-03-2016, 04:57 PM
#15
Ford Man
I tried the FORScan on my laptop and phone, it wont talk to my Bluetooth module. I did download the full Torqued and the fuel stayed steady at 40psi.
I did monitor trim on both banks they were pretty much in sync and when the acceleration was sluggish they were low (just above 0 but when it picked up after the delay they were 30-40. Not sure if this is normal due to RPM or what. I am not seeing the wild fluctuations in timing you are, it will occasionally retard to -5 at low RPM (1000-2000)with moderate pedal but ramps up nicely as RPM rises. The other oddity is my throttle position never drops below 13.5 and peaks at 80.
I did monitor trim on both banks they were pretty much in sync and when the acceleration was sluggish they were low (just above 0 but when it picked up after the delay they were 30-40. Not sure if this is normal due to RPM or what. I am not seeing the wild fluctuations in timing you are, it will occasionally retard to -5 at low RPM (1000-2000)with moderate pedal but ramps up nicely as RPM rises. The other oddity is my throttle position never drops below 13.5 and peaks at 80.
05-06-2016, 11:34 AM
#16
Member
Thread Starter
I am starting to think my bog may be related to a P2006 code that has been hiding in the PCM. P2006 is Bank 1 IMRC (Intake Manifold Runner Control) stuck closed. Since these trucks only have a single actuator that operates the plates on both sides, I am inclined to assume that Bank 1 code is not specific to just one side. In other words I think it triggers Bank 1 because there is only 1 actuator, not 2.
Now that I can log the IMRC movement in this thing, it only seems to operate very early in a cold run cycle. Then it goes inop. I noticed it yesterday when I started home from work. Fired up the truck, pulled out and while the IMRC system was working it was super responsive. I found a test procedure for the F150 IMRC that I will try this weekend.
My thought is, since the electronic throttle system is torque demand based, when you hit the gas, the PCM is opening the throttle body expecting to produce "x" amount of torque. When it does not, (because of restricted airflow due to the CMCV plates being closed), it goes WOT (actual and desired throttle positions are very similar in the logs) in an attempt to produce "x" amount of torque. This causes the PCM to think the load is very very high and pulls timing to avoid possible spark knock. Then as rpm increases, torque demand lessens and the timing ramps back in.
This is just my theory. I try to will log more data to see if it supports or refutes my theory.
Now that I can log the IMRC movement in this thing, it only seems to operate very early in a cold run cycle. Then it goes inop. I noticed it yesterday when I started home from work. Fired up the truck, pulled out and while the IMRC system was working it was super responsive. I found a test procedure for the F150 IMRC that I will try this weekend.
The Charge Motion Control Valve (CMCV). It is an electrical actuator located on the back of the lower chamber of the intake manifold, and it functions to change the intake air path through the manifold from long runners to short runners, depending on engine RPM and load. This results in a sudden boost of extra torque because more air can get into the cylinders. The connector on the CMCV actuator is not easily accessed. To test the CMCV actuator, access the PCM power train control module connectors. The PCM is at the top of the firewall on the passenger side of the engine compartment. The CMCV command and monitor circuits are in PCM connector C175E, the closest to the passenger fender of the three PCM connectors. The CMCV command wire is a Light Blue/Orange wire in pin 50 of C175E, and the CMCV monitor wire is a Black/White wire in pin 43 of C175E.
The PCM grounds the Light Blue/Orange CMCV command wire at engine startup to close the CMCV runners. When driving, the PCM ungrounds this circuit at higher RPM to open the CMCV runners. The PCM will not unground this circuit when the engine is revved up in park or neutral, the vehicle must be under driving conditions. The PCM sends battery voltage out to the CMCV actuator on the Black/White Monitor circuit. Whenever the Light Blue/Orange CMCV Command circuit is NOT grounded, and the CMCV runners are in the open position, the CMCV actuator grounds this circuit, pulling the voltage down close to zero volts. Whenever the command circuit is grounded, and the CMCV runners are in the closed position, the CMCV actuator ungrounds the monitor circuit, and the voltage rises close to battery voltage. On scan data, whenever there is battery voltage on the CMCV monitor circuit, the CMCV Monitor PID will read 5 volts. This is a normal "quirk" in the system.
To test the CMCV actuator, disconnect PCM connector C175E. With the key on, and being careful not to spread or otherwise damage the connector terminals, ground and unground the Light Blue/Orange wire in pin 50. CMCV actuator movement should be heard as the circuit is grounded and ungrounded, and a light and mirror can be used to watch for the actuator and linkage to move back and forth. At the same time, monitor the Black/White wire in pin 43. It should show ground when pin 50 is not grounded, and no ground when pin 50 is grounded. If the actuator does not move, and/or the monitor circuit does not ground and unground properly, the CMCV actuator will need to be accessed to verify that the command and monitor circuits are not open or shorted. Also check for battery voltage to the CMCV actuator on the Red/Yellow wire, from fuse 32 in the inside fuse box, and a good ground on the CMCV actuator Black/White wire (the one next to the Red/Yellow wire in the CMCV actuator connector), from ground G103, at the rear of the passenger side fender, next to the rear of the battery. If the wiring all checks OK, replace the CMCV actuator.
The PCM grounds the Light Blue/Orange CMCV command wire at engine startup to close the CMCV runners. When driving, the PCM ungrounds this circuit at higher RPM to open the CMCV runners. The PCM will not unground this circuit when the engine is revved up in park or neutral, the vehicle must be under driving conditions. The PCM sends battery voltage out to the CMCV actuator on the Black/White Monitor circuit. Whenever the Light Blue/Orange CMCV Command circuit is NOT grounded, and the CMCV runners are in the open position, the CMCV actuator grounds this circuit, pulling the voltage down close to zero volts. Whenever the command circuit is grounded, and the CMCV runners are in the closed position, the CMCV actuator ungrounds the monitor circuit, and the voltage rises close to battery voltage. On scan data, whenever there is battery voltage on the CMCV monitor circuit, the CMCV Monitor PID will read 5 volts. This is a normal "quirk" in the system.
To test the CMCV actuator, disconnect PCM connector C175E. With the key on, and being careful not to spread or otherwise damage the connector terminals, ground and unground the Light Blue/Orange wire in pin 50. CMCV actuator movement should be heard as the circuit is grounded and ungrounded, and a light and mirror can be used to watch for the actuator and linkage to move back and forth. At the same time, monitor the Black/White wire in pin 43. It should show ground when pin 50 is not grounded, and no ground when pin 50 is grounded. If the actuator does not move, and/or the monitor circuit does not ground and unground properly, the CMCV actuator will need to be accessed to verify that the command and monitor circuits are not open or shorted. Also check for battery voltage to the CMCV actuator on the Red/Yellow wire, from fuse 32 in the inside fuse box, and a good ground on the CMCV actuator Black/White wire (the one next to the Red/Yellow wire in the CMCV actuator connector), from ground G103, at the rear of the passenger side fender, next to the rear of the battery. If the wiring all checks OK, replace the CMCV actuator.
This is just my theory. I try to will log more data to see if it supports or refutes my theory.
Last edited by BigBlockRanger; 05-06-2016 at 11:38 AM.
05-11-2016, 05:31 PM
#17
Member
Thread Starter
Further logging shows the IMRC's are enabled early in a drive cycle. It also is logging an IMRC fault at the same time they are enabled. After 15 seconds or so, the IMRC's are disabled and never come back on during the drive cycle. The truck runs great while enabled and just ok when they are disabled with low rpm performance dropping off (more timing pulled) as intake air temps rise.
I do not believe the IMRC's are actually opening since they failed the above test. I considered rigging up a relay to fool the pcm into thinking the IMRC was operational (just to see how it ran) but I went ahead and ordered an actuator from rockauto. I may still attempt to 'trick' it just for fun.
I do not believe the IMRC's are actually opening since they failed the above test. I considered rigging up a relay to fool the pcm into thinking the IMRC was operational (just to see how it ran) but I went ahead and ordered an actuator from rockauto. I may still attempt to 'trick' it just for fun.
05-11-2016, 07:32 PM
#18
Ford Man
Well, I guess I finally discovered what was wrong with my F-150, rolling down the highway at 78 mph it started missing and bucking. Made it off the road almost to a gas station coasting. Wouldn't re start. Towed to the dealer and waiting on final word, but Bank 1 cam to retarded, miss codes on cyl. 1-4 and a scraping noise says Phaser/Timing failure. Hoping its just the timing and no bent valves or holy pistons!
Guess I need to change my signature to 233000 and in the shop! It will rise again.
Guess I need to change my signature to 233000 and in the shop! It will rise again.
Last edited by JimWills; 05-11-2016 at 07:36 PM. Reason: Added sentence
05-11-2016, 08:24 PM
#19
Member
Thread Starter
Total bummer!! Here's to it being an easy and inexpensive fix!
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I played with mine this evening. Using the operation description on the other page, I realized that for the PCM to think the actuator was open the black/white monitor wire needed to be grounded. So I found that wire at the PCM connector, snipped, stripped and grounded it. Blammo, the IMRC enable light in Torque came on as well as the fault light. Checked the codes and sure enough, the P2006(IMRC stuck closed) was gone and was now replaced by a P2004 (IMRC stuck open). Took it for a test drive and yippee no more massive timing retard. The truck was perky and responsive (more like I expect a 300hp engine to perform) even when the intake air temps were in the 115 degree range. I am going to leave it like this for a while and see how it runs, but I am super happy that I found the root cause of my massive bog when the weather is hot and it is definitely NOT related to the phaser lockouts with no tune. Apparently a stuck open code is much much better than a stuck closed!
EDIT
Just thought I would add a screenshot of a current datalog. Notice when the accelerator pedal (green line) is mashed from 0 mph, the ignition timing (white line) rises and actual throttle position (pink line) really stays closely in sync with the accelerator pedal.
****************************************
I played with mine this evening. Using the operation description on the other page, I realized that for the PCM to think the actuator was open the black/white monitor wire needed to be grounded. So I found that wire at the PCM connector, snipped, stripped and grounded it. Blammo, the IMRC enable light in Torque came on as well as the fault light. Checked the codes and sure enough, the P2006(IMRC stuck closed) was gone and was now replaced by a P2004 (IMRC stuck open). Took it for a test drive and yippee no more massive timing retard. The truck was perky and responsive (more like I expect a 300hp engine to perform) even when the intake air temps were in the 115 degree range. I am going to leave it like this for a while and see how it runs, but I am super happy that I found the root cause of my massive bog when the weather is hot and it is definitely NOT related to the phaser lockouts with no tune. Apparently a stuck open code is much much better than a stuck closed!
EDIT
Just thought I would add a screenshot of a current datalog. Notice when the accelerator pedal (green line) is mashed from 0 mph, the ignition timing (white line) rises and actual throttle position (pink line) really stays closely in sync with the accelerator pedal.
Last edited by BigBlockRanger; 05-12-2016 at 02:28 PM.