Martian

From the original post:
Don't forget it.

Eric Kleven

Was using Rotella T6 5w-40 to keep the engine alive and stable until I could swap out all the timing stuff.
after fresh oil pump, chains, tensioners, guides, phasers, solenoids, hla and rff, I'm using 5w-30. Formula Shell from Home Depot for $12.97 /5qt. We'll see how it goes, but there's no way I'm running the thin stuff after having to replace all the valvetrain minus cams on a 140k mile engine. There's no reason for having to do that kind of re-build at those miles. Ford f'd up on the tensioners first, and vct solenoids second. Just glad I caught it before the passenger side cam caps got *TOO* worn to be useful. They're definitely too loose for 5w-20 right now.

stupid CAFE oil.


The rest of the story:
got the truck in a hurry on a Friday afternoon. Whoops... Body was super-duper clean, though. So, engine was acting up almost straight away; barely got the gas tank filled before the phaser freak-outs started happening.
So, I hit the internet and this forum gave me a lot of great information about the issues. Sunday morning I hit up a parts store, grabbed some 10w-30 diesel oil and a bunch of Marvel's Mystery Oil. 200 miles later (had to drive home from the lady's college reunion) there was 6 quarts of Delo XLE 400 semi-synth and a pint of MMO in the crank case. That run lasted about 2,000 miles before i couldn't see crosshatch on the dipstick. Eww.
Since that seemed a bit obscene to me, I did a solvent flush with Berryman's B12 Chemtool. Old School method, 1 1/2 oz B12 per quart of motor oil. Add to a cold engine, then fire it up and high-idle for 10-15 minutes.
I've never seen motor oil that black in my life; usually light is somewhat visible through the stream as it comes out of the drain plug... not this time. Add a couple of nasty thick 'Glops' of sludgy garbage to that oil drain and I'd say there was some neglect on this poor engine.

In went the Rotella 5w-40 with a pint of Kano Kreen. When that flashed off, in went another pint. The Chemtool did an outstanding job of cleaning out all the crud, there was nothing left for the Kreen, and the T6 went 6,500 miles before it even started to change color. I dropped it at 8k for another change of the T6 (I was getting nervous) and then did the engine work about 2k later.

that's my story.

Especial86

iTrader: (1)

This thread although long does prove a great argument to use 5w-30 over 5w-20.. to quickly summarize that point, 5w-30 is more shear stable at higher temperatures than 5w-20.. Engine oil temps at least for me can heat up quick, and 5w-30 especially in the summer months provides the protection I desire for my new motor.

My old 04 stock 5w-30 motor went to 195k before a lash adjuster seized, and popped the rocker off the valve stem which in turn dropped a valve into cylinder 3. Boom, hole in the piston, engine toast.
This should be a well heeded warning to all who emphatically want to stare at their cam phasers only and disregard the rest of valve train. Lash adjusters are only good to around 200k before they start to stick and then seize up. That's right, a cam phaser and timing issue was completely avoided for the life of my motor, and I ran the 04 model year stock timing set with the latest revision solenoids. 5w-30 and the new solenoids did in fact cure my phaser ticking.. period.

Now with a whole new engine, at 12k miles currently and the same stock tranny (see my tranny drain plug thread), I've been running mint since the first fire. I'm still supercharged, with 9 psi, short tube headers, x pipe, and yes I'm running 5w-30 penz plat synthetic here in the northeast... pretty much the only oil I will run now.. no more Amsoil due to price to performance comparisons. I've changed the oil 6 times from 5w-20 syn blend (break in) to 5w-20 penz plat and then to 5w-30 penz plat..
I did this to thoroughly purge the motor of all break in particles. I've since had absolutely zero ticking, zero problems, and my oil has remained eerily clean. Like vegetable oil.
This new motor with all of its cured issues plaguing the 04-08 model years could easily run 5w-20 or 5w-30 for its entire life.. Both are great oils for these engines, especially in cooler climates..

FYI, if it's 2 degrees outside, all your fluids are cold, and likely more viscous.. Always warm up your engine and even more importantly, always warm up your tranny.. 5w-20 is not going to make much of a difference in cold temps vs 5w-30. This argument should be more about the region you live in vs which oil is better..

For the guy in Minnesota, I'd prob still run 5w-30 year round given your engines age and factory parts.. Just make sure you give it a good 10 min to warm up.. I won't even drive until my trans hits 60 degrees and I've been very fortunate to still remain issue free, especially considering how I'm pushing much more power and torque than stock. My situation may be different than yours however, I drive a separate diesel sprinter van for work daily, and really only take my F-150 out on nights and weekends.

Hope this helps clear up a few things for some of you guys..
I know some of you other guys follow the book to T, but I still hold my thought that the 04-09 5.4 3v should not have been blanket spec'd with 5w-20 across the US map.. You can thank the ideologues of CAFE and the EPA who strong armed Ford to hit fuel economy benchmarks that actually inhibited what the engineers designed the 5.4 to run on..
I heard that recently Ford discussed this issue with the incoming administration, alongside the fact that consumers here in the USA prefer SUVs and trucks. So I do believe that we may be seeing a much better attitude towards the products that Americans actually want to buy.

hahanson

To the orginal question, there's not a heck of a lot of difference when you're talking about "normal" temperature ranges our vehicles operate in. To make it even more complicated, it really depends on which 5W-20 or 5W-30 you are talking about. Some 5W-20's are very close to 5W-30's, and some 5W-30's are nearly 5W-20's. You can look up Widman's viscosity charts if you really want to get into it, but most people wouldn't notice a difference one way or the other as most people don't operate their engines in extremes or fringes of normal operating temps where the actual differences would start to show up.

It's not the "detergent", but rather early on the seal-swell characteristics of synthetics were different from those of the mineral oils they replaced. Since the seal-swell rate was lower, the seals shrank and oil leaked from crankshaft seals and rocker cover seals.

This is no longer a problem with today's synthetics.

Today's computerized and fuel injected engines do not need "warmed up", and over the long haul it will do more harm than good, although to what degree may be debatable. The life of components such as piston rings and cylinder liners can be significantly reduced by gasoline washing away the lubricating oil (gas is a great solvent), not to mention the extra fuel that is used while the engine runs rich. There are simply more factual reasons why you shouldn't allow your vehicle to idle when cold than there are in support of it. You're better off just getting into the car and driving normally while it warms up, taking it nice and easy for the first 5 -15 minutes until the engine is up to normal operating temps. Also, cold should not hurt the transmission either. If really cold weather causes your transmission to act up, that's more a symptom of something already going wrong, not a cause.

Kristof Ferenczi

I'm gunna keep running 5w-30 down here in florida

Especial86

iTrader: (1)

It's blanket statements like this that are the reason why oil threads are so contentious.

So because of electronics and fuel injection your telling me the thermal expansion of metal is now a completely moot happening?
Your also implying that any oil is pretty much at parity with ambient temp, regardless of the real temperature dictating its actual viscosity.
This is some bad advice if that's what it is..

Many engine blocks have gone from cast iron to aluminum through the years, but nothing else has changed for almost a century. These metals all shrink and expand when heated or cooled, that also has also not changed.
But your telling me that a couple of micro chips and electrics sprinkled on top of an engine block can almost instantly bring metal into parity with whatever the ambient temp may be.. ?

Wether you warm up an engine or trans on a 80 degree for 60 seconds, or on a -10 degree day for 10 minutes, what your doing is your thermal cycling everything.. Not just the fluid, or the metal..... Everything.. Even that touch screen monitor..
Please warm up your engine.. There are so many reasons to warm up your engine. Regardless of what any manufacturer printed in a manual that is designed to appeal to a broad unknowledgeable sales target. Remember, they are only trying make you feel good about your purchase, while hoping you purchase again in the not to distant future.

Martian

The original post remains... cite solid proof of either argument if you want to prove your case. This thread shall not turn into another at-throats oil argument.

Especial86

iTrader: (1)

Not sure how that statement is directed and to whom it's directed towards?

Martian

Everyone. Everybody. The entire thread. It was there since the origin and will always be there.

hahanson

I never stated the expansion of metal is not happening. It's a variable whether you are driving or idling. "Warm up" is simply more efficient during driving than idling the engine - which drastically increases the amount of fuel (solvent) over the amount of oil being dispersed and reduces the dilution of oil from a extra rich fuel/air mixture.

"The life of components like piston rings and cylinder liners can be significantly reduced by gasoline washing away the lubricating oil, not to mention the extra fuel that is used while the engine runs rich."

"That's a problem because you're actually putting extra fuel into the combustion chamber to make it burn and some of it can get onto the cylinder walls. Gasoline is an outstanding solvent and it can actually wash oil off the walls if you run it in those cold idle conditions for an extended period of time" (quoting Stephen Ciatti, a mechanical engineer who specializes in combustion engines at the Argonne National Laboratory).

You hardly have to take my word for it; there are literally hundreds of similar quotes easily found by searching the subject.

Again, metals shrink and expand, but "shrinking" metal actually increases the tolerance, not decreases it. This whole thing has more to do with oil viscosity than it does with increased tolerances from the slight contraction of cold metal (which slightly increases tolerances, invalidating your argument).

Cold starting does have a significant impact on engine wear, but not because the metal is cold, but because the oil is thicker and takes longer to get to the parts that need lubricating. After the first few seconds, that's no longer a problem as oil has arrived at critical parts, meaning continuing to idle the engine accomplishes little. Today's motor oils -- particularly synthetics and blends -- stay on the parts better and get to the parts quicker after sitting for long periods significantly reducing the wear which occurs upon initial cold starts.

Again you're making the wrong argument as I've explained above.

Terrible and flawed advice. While I'm not sure idling will cause enough premature wear to be a concern for most people, the economic and ecological impacts given the millions of cars on the roads is certainly something to think about.

For those interested, here's a great article and accompanying video which does a better job of explaining than I can in a single post: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...m-up-your-car/

If you want to learn more about oil, take a look at the forums from bobtheoilguy website. Lots of great info there.

I'm not speaking from anecdotal evidence, rather scientific data with links and references provided (and almost 40 years of experience working with high performance motorcycle racing engines).