2005 F150 SCREW Dieseling - Theory
08-19-2013, 10:00 AM
#91
I also wanted to play a bit of scientist today and really understand now these things work. Have a look at this picture (and passage descriptions) ...
So oil is pumped from the head into #7. In then travels thru a filter...a mesh screen (#1) before it gets to the VCT Solenoid. With the VCT solenoid installed into the valve body, the non-screened, center orifice is the first to get oil.
Based on what the PCM tells the VCT solenoid, it either opens the center orifice down, sending oil to the top orifice on the solenoid (to advance the timing) ... or it opens the center orifice up, sending oil to the bottom orifice on the solenoid (to retard the timing).
Even if the center orifice is closed (neither advancing nor retarding the timing), the passage from #1 appears to be able to get to #4,5,6 with the VCT solenoid disabled (unplugged or PCM disabled due to low ambient temp).
Finally...I studied everything trying to figure out how the oil actually got into the phaser. The retard side of the valve body feeds two orifices in the end of the camshaft. These orifices feed 5 very small orifices just in side the lip of where the camshaft and camgear join together (near the drive pin).
For the life of me, I could not figure out how the advance side oil was getting to the phaser. Then I picked-up one of my old phaser bolts and ...a-ha!...the phaser bolt has an oil passage down the center of the bolt that then feeds two perpendicular orifices near the head of the bolt.
So, with a (new) phaser bolt fully torqued down, a small washer seals the phaser bolt from the phasers backside/camshaft end and can pump oil into 5 other, very small orifices to advance the timing.
Anyway...I found it all very interesting (even if it might be a poor design) and had I not spent so much time playing Mr. Science, I might have gotten further along today
... oh well, I did enjoy 'fingerin' it out'.
I am coming to a final point here .....
I wanted to see a VCT solenoid in operation. So (per the MC Service manual), I setup a 5A fusible link and ran jumpers from each pin on the solenoid to my battery (which is on my bench, of course!).
So, the MC Service manual says that "if you hear a 'click'" ... that the solenoid is OK. Well, I have 4 solenoids (2 old, 1 new, 1 new broken!) and they ALL "clicked" regardless of the polarity. But what I really expected to see was the valve move (the center orifice). I expected one polarity to move the valve UP ... and the reverse polarity to move the valve DOWN. But all I got was 'clicky-click ... clicky-click'.
If oil is going to make it into the retard or advance passages, this orifice has to completely open (up or down) ... don't you think?
So oil is pumped from the head into #7. In then travels thru a filter...a mesh screen (#1) before it gets to the VCT Solenoid. With the VCT solenoid installed into the valve body, the non-screened, center orifice is the first to get oil.
Based on what the PCM tells the VCT solenoid, it either opens the center orifice down, sending oil to the top orifice on the solenoid (to advance the timing) ... or it opens the center orifice up, sending oil to the bottom orifice on the solenoid (to retard the timing).
Even if the center orifice is closed (neither advancing nor retarding the timing), the passage from #1 appears to be able to get to #4,5,6 with the VCT solenoid disabled (unplugged or PCM disabled due to low ambient temp).
Finally...I studied everything trying to figure out how the oil actually got into the phaser. The retard side of the valve body feeds two orifices in the end of the camshaft. These orifices feed 5 very small orifices just in side the lip of where the camshaft and camgear join together (near the drive pin).
For the life of me, I could not figure out how the advance side oil was getting to the phaser. Then I picked-up one of my old phaser bolts and ...a-ha!...the phaser bolt has an oil passage down the center of the bolt that then feeds two perpendicular orifices near the head of the bolt.
So, with a (new) phaser bolt fully torqued down, a small washer seals the phaser bolt from the phasers backside/camshaft end and can pump oil into 5 other, very small orifices to advance the timing.
Anyway...I found it all very interesting (even if it might be a poor design) and had I not spent so much time playing Mr. Science, I might have gotten further along today
... oh well, I did enjoy 'fingerin' it out'.I am coming to a final point here .....
I wanted to see a VCT solenoid in operation. So (per the MC Service manual), I setup a 5A fusible link and ran jumpers from each pin on the solenoid to my battery (which is on my bench, of course!).
So, the MC Service manual says that "if you hear a 'click'" ... that the solenoid is OK. Well, I have 4 solenoids (2 old, 1 new, 1 new broken!) and they ALL "clicked" regardless of the polarity. But what I really expected to see was the valve move (the center orifice). I expected one polarity to move the valve UP ... and the reverse polarity to move the valve DOWN. But all I got was 'clicky-click ... clicky-click'.
If oil is going to make it into the retard or advance passages, this orifice has to completely open (up or down) ... don't you think?
And when studying the dorman phasers its my belief that the spring keeps it retarded and oil pressure advances, or vise versa. But that may not be the case.
08-19-2013, 12:17 PM
#92
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Primal...no I am not. I seriously thought about doing a lot more than I am doing (lash adjusters, rockers...whatever I might find suspect in the valvetrain, and spark plugs) ... but this ole girl has stretched my budget to the limits. With all that said, my cams look really good and I have eyeballed the rollers on the rockers at various positions (rotate 30deg, look, rotate 30deg look) ... everything looks pretty good. Couple that with my clickity-clack racket being 100% isolated to the passenger-side, front valve cover (the phaser), and I am keeping my fingers crossed that the phaser (and some pretty worn-out tensioner seals) are the cause of my issues.
If the phaser "tick" hasn't gone away (or comes back within a few hundred miles), I'd bet that the thrust bearing deal-i-o-s on the crank are the source (although I have pretty decent oil pressure).
Well...I think mine were just a single-click. The test leads I have don't have any boots on the alligator clips. Haha...the first time I touched those leads to my 750 CCA Motorcraft battery, I got quite tingle. So, after that I was kinda holding them from the wire and didn't get great contact. But a couple of times I did get a good connection and it was just a single click.
All of this still begs the question however...that middle orifice on the VCT solenoids looks closed (by default) to me. Therefore not allowing ANY oil into the phaser at all. I believe this is only a condition that exists if the ambient outside temperature is below freezing (controlled by the PCM). So...when I did my test, I fully expected to see that solenoid OPEN the middle orifice in either direction. I would think my (fused) direct connection to a battery would provide plenty of voltage to open the valve.
I guess the valve might not open unless under oil pressure, but the sleeve inside that middle orifice doesn't seem like it would respond to oil pressure. It is quite smooth and tight in the bore of the solenoid and seems like it would move with just current ... but of course, I could be wrong.
Also, at this point, I am not convinced that the newest "B" design of VCT solenoids are the best thing / right thing for the older 5.4L 3V engines. I'd like to know what all the various versions of the solenoids are for (e.g. F150 vs. Expedition vs. E250 vs. Mustang, etc.) and if they are truely forward / backward compatible.
If the phaser "tick" hasn't gone away (or comes back within a few hundred miles), I'd bet that the thrust bearing deal-i-o-s on the crank are the source (although I have pretty decent oil pressure).
When I tested my VCT solenoids, I just used wires with no fuse, I only heard just a click where the solenoid was only moving once, no clickity click as you describe?
And when studying the dorman phasers its my belief that the spring keeps it retarded and oil pressure advances, or vise versa. But that may not be the case.
And when studying the dorman phasers its my belief that the spring keeps it retarded and oil pressure advances, or vise versa. But that may not be the case.
All of this still begs the question however...that middle orifice on the VCT solenoids looks closed (by default) to me. Therefore not allowing ANY oil into the phaser at all. I believe this is only a condition that exists if the ambient outside temperature is below freezing (controlled by the PCM). So...when I did my test, I fully expected to see that solenoid OPEN the middle orifice in either direction. I would think my (fused) direct connection to a battery would provide plenty of voltage to open the valve.
I guess the valve might not open unless under oil pressure, but the sleeve inside that middle orifice doesn't seem like it would respond to oil pressure. It is quite smooth and tight in the bore of the solenoid and seems like it would move with just current ... but of course, I could be wrong.
Also, at this point, I am not convinced that the newest "B" design of VCT solenoids are the best thing / right thing for the older 5.4L 3V engines. I'd like to know what all the various versions of the solenoids are for (e.g. F150 vs. Expedition vs. E250 vs. Mustang, etc.) and if they are truely forward / backward compatible.
08-19-2013, 03:05 PM
#93
Primal...no I am not. I seriously thought about doing a lot more than I am doing (lash adjusters, rockers...whatever I might find suspect in the valvetrain, and spark plugs) ... but this ole girl has stretched my budget to the limits. With all that said, my cams look really good and I have eyeballed the rollers on the rockers at various positions (rotate 30deg, look, rotate 30deg look) ... everything looks pretty good. Couple that with my clickity-clack racket being 100% isolated to the passenger-side, front valve cover (the phaser), and I am keeping my fingers crossed that the phaser (and some pretty worn-out tensioner seals) are the cause of my issues.
If the phaser "tick" hasn't gone away (or comes back within a few hundred miles), I'd bet that the thrust bearing deal-i-o-s on the crank are the source (although I have pretty decent oil pressure).
Well...I think mine were just a single-click. The test leads I have don't have any boots on the alligator clips. Haha...the first time I touched those leads to my 750 CCA Motorcraft battery, I got quite tingle. So, after that I was kinda holding them from the wire and didn't get great contact. But a couple of times I did get a good connection and it was just a single click.
Also, at this point, I am not convinced that the newest "B" design of VCT solenoids are the best thing / right thing for the older 5.4L 3V engines. I'd like to know what all the various versions of the solenoids are for (e.g. F150 vs. Expedition vs. E250 vs. Mustang, etc.) and if they are truely forward / backward compatible.
When I took my solenoid apart, i believe the spring keeps it in a normal state and when it is activated it allows oil to go through to the other side of the vanes, and the spring is there for start up and what not.
The single click is correct,
A solenoid no matter of polarity will pull/push the plunger in the designed direction.
And to be honest I'm no genius to this system, I took it apart to look at it, see how it works, and didn't pay to much attention since I was using the lockout kit I didn't need to have the phaser section functioning.
08-19-2013, 04:54 PM
#94
[MENTION=130728]FordSilly[/MENTION] did you do the phaser job yourself? The dealership by me is telling me it will cost $1800 because of a special tool that keeps the timing chain in place and if it moves or breaks it will cost me more money.
08-19-2013, 05:19 PM
#95
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I would never pay more than $1800 for a FULL timing-kit repair (phasers, guides, chains, tensioners, cranksprocket, timing-cover seal, etc.) In fact, knowing what I know, I would shop around and likely not pay more than $1400. Some guy on here recently reported that he had the full timing kit job PLUS spark-plug replacement for $1400. Don't know if he was blowing smoke, but I don't know why he would. It pays to shop around.
If I was paying for just a single (or double) phaser replacement, I would think it should be along the lines of $500 ($1000) ... at the max, including parts.
EDIT: I digress ... I guess the tool is a whopping $80 ...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Ford-3V-...-/261211450614
The dealership likely has a dozen of these tools already on hand! (If it is a FoMoCo dealership)
Last edited by GrimaceTimus; 08-19-2013 at 05:29 PM.
08-19-2013, 06:21 PM
#96
I can chime-in here a little. The special tool that they are referring to costs all of $30. It is a wedge. Some guys have made there own when just swapping-out phasers and not a full timing kit.
I would never pay more than $1800 for a FULL timing-kit repair (phasers, guides, chains, tensioners, cranksprocket, timing-cover seal, etc.) In fact, knowing what I know, I would shop around and likely not pay more than $1400. Some guy on here recently reported that he had the full timing kit job PLUS spark-plug replacement for $1400. Don't know if he was blowing smoke, but I don't know why he would. It pays to shop around.
If I was paying for just a single (or double) phaser replacement, I would think it should be along the lines of $500 ($1000) ... at the max, including parts.
EDIT: I digress ... I guess the tool is a whopping $80 ...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Ford-3V-...-/261211450614
The dealership likely has a dozen of these tools already on hand! (If it is a FoMoCo dealership)
08-19-2013, 07:27 PM
#97
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Sounds like it's time for another dealer ... or private shop. Take you time and look around for a private shop that has verifiable experience with the 5.4L 3V engine. Chances are, they'll be much, much less.
08-19-2013, 08:03 PM
#98
And by the sounds of it, that tool is only needed when doing just a phaser swap, there is a video of some guy Doing it on a mustang, I'm guessing under and hour on passenger side and maybe two on driver side due to ps res.
And if they say 13 hours that's bs, its a 10 hour book job. I know some good shops in mankato.
The only tool needed for doing the whole timing system replacement I can think of would be some tool to hold the camshafts from spinning. But vise grips worked great for me....
08-19-2013, 08:33 PM
#99
Wow...that's quite a few hours to just swap phasers. I think the full timing kit replacement (including phasers) is usually quoted at 10 shop hours. Since the timing cover doesn't have to come-off for just phaser-replacement, I'd expect that job to be like 3 hours, per side...tops.
Sounds like it's time for another dealer ... or private shop. Take you time and look around for a private shop that has verifiable experience with the 5.4L 3V engine. Chances are, they'll be much, much less.
Sounds like it's time for another dealer ... or private shop. Take you time and look around for a private shop that has verifiable experience with the 5.4L 3V engine. Chances are, they'll be much, much less.
08-19-2013, 11:12 PM
#100
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Should you decide to do it yourself, I would not encourage anyone that does not have a good collection of tools...or someone that hasn't done too much more than a basic repair. It is actually a pretty simple job overall, but it when you have to tear half the engine compartment out...many fasteners incredibly difficult to get to (requiring that good collection of tools), and unplug 25-30 connections ... well, you get the gist. It's definitely not something to be done with a Craftsman socket set and some vise grips (although I guess if you were in a pinch, it could be accomplished).
To give you an idea of what it has cost me to perform the repair myself (and I'm not back-up and running yet) ...
- $550 - Ford OEM Timing Kit on eBay
- $200 - Tools (I didn't have a puller; my torque wrench has been flakin' out; and I sprung for the PS pump puller & fan wrench ... not to mention a couple of little here an there items ... turns out I didn't have a single 18mm socket at all...no shallow, no deep, standard or impact).
- $50 - Additional parts ... I broke a VCT solenoid, I think I am going to go ahead and get some new valve-cover gaskets ... and need new VCT-valvecover seals too.
That's what I can think of. So, I am $800 into it ... more like $900 if you include my oil pressure gauge setup and fruitless attempt at running 10W-40. If I could have found a shop that would have done the whole thing for $1400...I would have totally spared myself this hoo-ha for $500.
That being said, there is some value to knowing your vehicle "inside and out" ... and a repair like this certainly puts you firmly on that path. I reckon there'll be the satisfaction of completion ... once I get there!
BTW - (Ladies...if present...and) Gentlemen ... I got exactly nothing done today on my truck. It was once again over 110 this afternoon and after working most of the weekend in the heat, I had to take a break. Hopefully back on with the timing cover tomorrow night and we'll see how much more I can get hung on the engine before 9pm rolls around.
