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-   -   2011+ 55-60mph 5.0 Shuddering and EcoBoost Engine Miss/Loss of Power - Possible Fixes (http://www.f150forum.com/f38/2011-55-60mph-5-0-shuddering-ecoboost-engine-miss-loss-power-possible-fixes-128636/)

Bob_Mac 12-26-2011 02:12 PM

2011+ 55-60mph 5.0 Shuddering and EcoBoost Engine Miss/Loss of Power - Possible Fixes
 
I have started another thread for the 55-60mph shuddering alot of us are experiencing. Please DO NOT post other issues to this thread i.e. shuddering on take-off, I have a 2010 with the shuddering, etc...this is meant to only be for the model year 2011 and the 55-60mph shuddering in 6th gear!

Anyway, here is a run down of what happened this weekend and after my visit to the dealer this morning. Saturday night on my way to pickup my daughters friend I had to accelerate onto the highway and I had very pronounced missfires when hard accelerating, this cleared up quickly. Now last night was a different story, I went outside to move my truck as we had a lot of company and upon starting the truck it ran very rough and wouldn't respond well to me revving the engine to try and clear it up. This lasted for approx. 30 seconds.

So I took it to the dealer this morning and talked with the tech in detail. I told him what had happened and that I am still having an issue with shuddering at 55-60mph on slight inclines in 6th gear and I see a lot of soot in the condensation that drips onto my driveway and noticed a decrease in mpg. He said "Oh? Well let me take a look at Mode 6 which will let me see any misfires".

After about 30 minutes I proceeded to go to the shop and speak with him and he said he sees quite a few misfires on all cylinders but the following are the worst; 1,2,5 & 7. He stated (he showed me the recording) that 3 & 5 are the worst under load but cylinder #1 is the worst when idling followed by #2. He says he felt as though the reflashes I had in the past didn't clear up the "Misfire Neutral Profile" (This works with the "VCT" (Variable Camshaft Timing)) that is stored but had to contact the "Tech HotLine" to see what they wanted him to do.

Tech hotline told him to clear out the profile and do the relearn and road test the vehicle. I watched him do the relearn and then watched the recorder and no more misfires! He then proceeded to test drive the truck and when returning he said (again he showed me the recorder) that the truck was no longer misfiring.

I left the dealer and proceeded to take the long way home and verify his results and I could not get it to shudder, I tried 50, 55, 60 & 65mph up inclines in 6th gear both in and out of cruise control and was amazed.

I'm not saying this is everyones resolve but based on what has been discussed the misfire maybe the issue at hand....


==

Filing a complaint:
Ford Customer Care: 1-866-631-3788
NHTSA: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

Some owners have reported that re-gapping or changing the spark plugs have either minimized or eliminated the shuddering issue:
Re-Gap Spark Plugs to: .032
NGK Part# LTR6IX-11

Removing Spark Plugs:
1. Remove oil cap, pull off engine cover, pull off foam insulator. Reinstall oil cap.
2. Disconnect coilpack connectors (slide red locking tab out first, then depress center clip)
3. Disconnect valve electrical connector (under foam,driver side)
4. Disconnect vacuum swing arm (turn plastic compression spring sleeve then pull up,driver side.)

You can now access each coil pack and spark plug.

Note: Apologies for not quoting the members posting possible solutions since there are too many threads and comments about this issue.

Bob_Mac 12-26-2011 02:13 PM

Reserved...

Deerhunter4 12-26-2011 02:26 PM

Good to hear that you may have fixed your problem. I have the exact same symptoms with my EB but I haven't gone to the dealer yet because I'm don't think Ford has released a fix for this problem yet. I still find it odd that different engines are experiencing the same misfire in 6th gear. Hopefully your fix will work for all of us. Thanks for the info.

Bob_Mac 12-26-2011 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deerhunter4 (Post 1295254)
Good to hear that you may have fixed your problem. I have the exact same symptoms with my EB but I haven't gone to the dealer yet because I'm don't think Ford has released a fix for this problem yet. I still find it odd that different engines are experiencing the same misfire in 6th gear. Hopefully your fix will work for all of us. Thanks for the info.

This fix may be good for all of us if it is indeed a programming issue and not individual parts as the parts would not be the same across different engines.

greylady 12-26-2011 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob_Mac
I have started another thread for the 55-60mph shuddering alot of us are experiencing. Please DO NOT post other issues to this thread i.e. shuddering on take-off, I have a 2010 with the shuddering, etc...this is meant to only be for the model year 2011 and the 55-60mph shuddering in 6th gear!

Anyway, here is a run down of what happened this weekend and after my visit to the dealer this morning. Saturday night on my way to pickup my daughters friend I had to accelerate onto the highway and I had very pronounced missfires when hard accelerating, this cleared up quickly. Now last night was a different story, I went outside to move my truck as we had a lot of company and upon starting the truck it ran very rough and wouldn't respond well to me revving the engine to try and clear it up. This lasted for approx. 30 seconds.

So I took it to the dealer this morning and talked with the tech in detail. I told him what had happened and that I am still having an issue with shuddering at 55-60mph on slight inclines in 6th gear and I see a lot of soot in the condensation that drips onto my driveway and noticed a decrease in mpg. He said "Oh? Well let me take a look at Mode 6 which will let me see any misfires".

After about 30 minutes I proceeded to go to the shop and speak with him and he said he sees quite a few misfires on all cylinders but the following are the worst; 1,2,5 & 7. He stated (he showed me the recording) that 3 & 5 are the worst under load but cylinder #1 is the worst when idling followed by #2. He says he felt as though the reflashes I had in the past didn't clear up the "Misfire Neutral Profile" (This works with the "VCT" (Variable Camshaft Timing)) that is stored but had to contact the "Tech HotLine" to see what they wanted him to do.

Tech hotline told him to clear out the profile and do the relearn and road test the vehicle. I watched him do the relearn and then watched the recorder and no more misfires! He then proceeded to test drive the truck and when returning he said (again he showed me the recorder) that the truck was no longer misfiring.

I left the dealer and proceeded to take the long way home and verify his results and I could not get it to shudder, I tried 50, 55, 60 & 65mph up inclines in 6th gear both in and out of cruise control and was amazed.

I'm not saying this is everyones resolve but based on what has been discussed the misfire maybe the issue at hand....

Bob_Mac did you have a CEL on or did you ever have a CEL come on or were the misfires just stored by computer and the computer never triggered a CEL?

Bob_Mac 12-26-2011 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greylady (Post 1295313)
Bob_Mac did you have a CEL on or did you ever have a CEL come on or were the misfires just stored by computer and the computer never triggered a CEL?

No CEL's at all which was puzzling considering how bad it was last night with the rough idle/start. The data for misfires was stored and was available in "Mode 6", which I am assuming is in the software. The actual proceedure was called "Misfire Neutral Profile Correction".

pfbz 12-26-2011 03:43 PM

Some info on Mode 6...

Basically, Mode 6 allows the tech to look at misfires before the 'set CEL due to misfires' threshold is reached.

From a dealers tools website:

Mode 6 – Find Ford Misfires Before Code Sets

Mode $06 misfire information displayed

Misfires particularly in Ford cars and trucks can many times be identified before a misfire code sets and turns the CEL (Check Engine Light) on. This is a huge time saver, especially when there is a definite misfire felt but the code seems to take forever to appear. Fords take a long time in some cases to run through it’s necessary drive cycles needed for self testing. Auto technicians deal with this common problem of diagnosing misfires on Ford vehicles with no codes set by using Mode $06. Usually only manufacturer specific scan tools will display misfire data when there’s no code, but OBD 2 generic scan tools that can access mode 6 on Ford vehicles can be a great help.

A misfire that hasn’t set a code or even a pending code, could be caused from a fouled spark plug, spark plug wires, ignition coil, injector or some other culprit. The particular cylinder can be pinpointed with the use of mode $06 diagnostics...

pfbz 12-26-2011 04:18 PM

But just to be clear, you are saying that the tech replaced no parts? Just reset the 'Misfire Neutral Profile' and all was well? I wasn't familiar with 'Misfire Neutral Profile', but a big of googling turned up this Ford OBD document...

It makes for some interesting reading, well, at least for gearhead tech geek's like me. Couple of interesting excerpts:
(long explanation of how a misfire is determined)...If a single cylinder is determined to be consistently misfiring in excess of the catalyst damage criteria, the fuel injector to that cylinder will be shut off for 30 seconds to prevent catalyst damage. Up to two cylinders may be disabled at the same time...
Definitely can see how shutting off a cylinder or two could be perceived as a 'shudder'!
"Profile correction" software is used to "learn" and correct for mechanical inaccuracies in the crankshaft position wheel tooth spacing...Since inaccuracies in the wheel tooth spacing can produce a false indication of misfire, the misfire monitor is not active until the corrections are learned.
It also says this about "neutral profile", as opposed to regular "profile correction". Sounds like it is used to more accurately detect misfires (really, to help prevent falsely determining misfires) at higher rpms.
Neutral profile learning is used at End of Line to learn profile correction via a series of one or more neutral engine rpm throttle snaps. This allows the Misfire Monitor to be activated at the Assembly Plant. A Test Tool command is required to enable this method of learning, so this method will only be performed by a Plant or Service technician. Learning profile correction factors at high-speed (3,000 rpm) neutral conditions versus during 60-40 mph decels optimizes correction factors for higher rpms where they are most needed and eliminates driveline/transmission and road noise effects. This improves signal to noise characteristics which means improved detection capability.
The profile correction factors learned at the Assembly Plant are stored into non-volatile memory. This eliminates the need for specific customer drive cycles. However, misfire profiles may need to be relearned in the Service Bay using a service procedure if major engine work is done or the PCM is replaced.
I certainly hope this profile clearing clears up your problems...

But I wonder if there isn't really something causing the misfires, or if they really are just 'phantom' misfires that are causing unnecessary and unwanted fuel cutout. It sounds like clearing the profile correction will temporarily turned off the misfire monitor, preventing the fuel cutoff (and therefore the studder) until the learning cycle is complete.

Hopefully it was just some sort of mis-calibration, but keep us informed!

Bob_Mac 12-26-2011 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfbz (Post 1295464)
But just to be clear, you are saying that the tech replaced no parts? Just reset the 'Misfire Neutral Profile' and all was well? I wasn't familiar with 'Misfire Neutral Profile', but a big of googling turned up this Ford OBD document...

It makes for some interesting reading, well, at least for gearhead tech geek's like me. Couple of interesting excerpts:
(long explanation of how a misfire is determined)...If a single cylinder is determined to be consistently misfiring in excess of the catalyst damage criteria, the fuel injector to that cylinder will be shut off for 30 seconds to prevent catalyst damage. Up to two cylinders may be disabled at the same time...
Definitely can see how shutting off a cylinder or two could be perceived as a 'shudder'!
"Profile correction" software is used to "learn" and correct for mechanical inaccuracies in the crankshaft position wheel tooth spacing...Since inaccuracies in the wheel tooth spacing can produce a false indication of misfire, the misfire monitor is not active until the corrections are learned.
It also says this about "neutral profile", as opposed to regular "profile correction". Sounds like it is used to more accurately detect misfires (really, to help prevent falsely determining misfires) at higher rpms.
Neutral profile learning is used at End of Line to learn profile correction via a series of one or more neutral engine rpm throttle snaps. This allows the Misfire Monitor to be activated at the Assembly Plant. A Test Tool command is required to enable this method of learning, so this method will only be performed by a Plant or Service technician. Learning profile correction factors at high-speed (3,000 rpm) neutral conditions versus during 60-40 mph decels optimizes correction factors for higher rpms where they are most needed and eliminates driveline/transmission and road noise effects. This improves signal to noise characteristics which means improved detection capability.
The profile correction factors learned at the Assembly Plant are stored into non-volatile memory. This eliminates the need for specific customer drive cycles. However, misfire profiles may need to be relearned in the Service Bay using a service procedure if major engine work is done or the PCM is replaced.
I certainly hope this profile clearing clears up your problems...

But I wonder if there isn't really something causing the misfires, or if they really are just 'phantom' misfires that are causing unnecessary and unwanted fuel cutout. It sounds like clearing the profile correction will temporarily turned off the misfire monitor, preventing the fuel cutoff (and therefore the studder) until the learning cycle is complete.

Hopefully it was just some sort of mis-calibration, but keep us informed!

I will keep everyone informed.

Interesting read "The profile correction factors learned at the Assembly Plant are stored into non-volatile memory. This eliminates the need for specific customer drive cycles. However, misfire profiles may need to be relearned in the Service Bay using a service procedure if major engine work is done or the PCM is replaced." .

No major work was performed on my truck outside the tranny pump and seals and the solenoids. The tech did state however that the proceedure was in his opinion never done (from factory hence the amount of vehicles affected?) and they saw this on many Mustangs over the past few years. Also the line above "This eliminates the need for specific customer driving cycles" means that there is no relearn on our part but only on what the tech had done per the procedure....

jchop30 12-26-2011 06:31 PM

Subscribed, my truck has all of the shutter symptoms. My truck is a 11 fx4 Ecoboost.


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