Mid Travel / Long Travel Tech Thread
02-11-2014, 08:23 PM
#21
Don't be sorry about asking questions, that's what the thread is for.
First thing first - RPG & SDHQ - those numbers are correct (as advertised - real numbers achieved I can only speculate) BUT they are not for the parts I listed. Those are the advertised travel numbers for each companies LT kits. The parts I showed in my post above are Raptor spec (width) and will only achieve ~14" of travel with front axles installed - you might be able to get another 1" or so without front axles. The travel number for the Dirt King MT setup is correct (even though they advertise it as a LT setup, it's MT).
You are correct, you need the appropriate UCA for whichever LCA you buy - IE, if you buy a Raptor spec lower, you need a Raptor spec upper. If you buy a Raptor +2 lower, you will need the matching upper and so on. I wouldn't worry to much about this though, the LTs are sold as kits with all matching parts anyway since they are typically fabricated either in house or from a dedicated vendor.
The Camburg and RPG lowers I posted are Raptor spec (factory Raptor width), you would need a Raptor spec upper to match. Alpha1 (Outlaw Raptor brand), ICON, Camburg and RPG all make Raptor spec uppers - my two favorites are the Alpha1 and ICON billet uppers but the tubular UNI's are good pieces also and much less expensive. I would have preferred the Alpha's but the uni wasn't sealed like on the ICONS and I live where they salt the roads...
You are correct - Raptor spec width limits you to RPG and Camburg (SDHQ also sells the Camburg lower but don't confuse it with their in house LT kit).
A UNI UCA typically gains our trucks about 1.5" of droop travel - meaning extra down travel, no impact on up travel. However, your UCA won't work with a Raptor spec lower.
technically (just so you understand) it's more than the difference between 2.5 and 3.0 - it's also a 8" stroke vs 10" stroke - they are physically longer as well as larger in diameter.
Honestly, if you aren't out in the dirt every weekend pushing the limits of your truck, you will probably never know the difference. Is there a difference, yes - does it matter for the vast majority of guys, no.
I beat the **** out of my Raptor so I went with max capability while staying within stock parameters - 14" of travel up front with dual 3.0s, 16" of travel out back with a 2.5" bump kit while retaining 100% of the bed functionality. My truck still retains 100% of it's factory utility (full disclosure, I chose to ditch the hitch but I could have kept it) yet is 10 fold more capable. You have to decide what your threshold is for 'performance' vs utility. You can turn your truck into a prerunner but then it's just about worthless for anything else.
LT shackles will lower the truck about an inch but will add that inch back in droop travel. In terms of 'leveling', you should have the ability to adjust your coilovers up or down for the ride/height you desire.
I have a Deaver +3 pack with a LT shackle - so yes, I would recommend it
You can absolutely swap out the 2.5 for 3.0s without changing anything OR you can run the 2.5s. Remember, the shocks control the deceleration of the suspension (hence the name, they control the 'shock' of suspension movement from an obstacle) - ergo a larger unit will outperform a smaller unit - if you run with an empty bed, the 2.5s are probably ok until you start running harder. LOTs of Raptor guys just add deavers or nationals and an RPG bump kit and leave the factory Raptor shocks on the rear. Believe it or not, some keep the fronts but swap in a heavier spring from Eibach and rave about the results - still not as good as a 3.0 but much better than factory.
This pretty much points to something like the Dirt King setup so you can increase your capability but retain the front coilovers you currently have. IIRC TAP Auto indicated that there is a 'modification' used to run the 8" stroke coilovers with the Dirt King kit - that 'should' mean that if you decide to upgrade to a 10" stroke 3.0 at a later date, you could remove the spacer or whatever its and bam! I'd call the guys at Dirt King and verify before I spent the money (like do they have a kit for your year group, able to use 10" stroke coilovers, etc...).
Hope this helps.
First thing first - RPG & SDHQ - those numbers are correct (as advertised - real numbers achieved I can only speculate) BUT they are not for the parts I listed. Those are the advertised travel numbers for each companies LT kits. The parts I showed in my post above are Raptor spec (width) and will only achieve ~14" of travel with front axles installed - you might be able to get another 1" or so without front axles. The travel number for the Dirt King MT setup is correct (even though they advertise it as a LT setup, it's MT).
You are correct, you need the appropriate UCA for whichever LCA you buy - IE, if you buy a Raptor spec lower, you need a Raptor spec upper. If you buy a Raptor +2 lower, you will need the matching upper and so on. I wouldn't worry to much about this though, the LTs are sold as kits with all matching parts anyway since they are typically fabricated either in house or from a dedicated vendor.
The Camburg and RPG lowers I posted are Raptor spec (factory Raptor width), you would need a Raptor spec upper to match. Alpha1 (Outlaw Raptor brand), ICON, Camburg and RPG all make Raptor spec uppers - my two favorites are the Alpha1 and ICON billet uppers but the tubular UNI's are good pieces also and much less expensive. I would have preferred the Alpha's but the uni wasn't sealed like on the ICONS and I live where they salt the roads...
You are correct - Raptor spec width limits you to RPG and Camburg (SDHQ also sells the Camburg lower but don't confuse it with their in house LT kit).
A UNI UCA typically gains our trucks about 1.5" of droop travel - meaning extra down travel, no impact on up travel. However, your UCA won't work with a Raptor spec lower.
technically (just so you understand) it's more than the difference between 2.5 and 3.0 - it's also a 8" stroke vs 10" stroke - they are physically longer as well as larger in diameter.
Honestly, if you aren't out in the dirt every weekend pushing the limits of your truck, you will probably never know the difference. Is there a difference, yes - does it matter for the vast majority of guys, no.
I beat the **** out of my Raptor so I went with max capability while staying within stock parameters - 14" of travel up front with dual 3.0s, 16" of travel out back with a 2.5" bump kit while retaining 100% of the bed functionality. My truck still retains 100% of it's factory utility (full disclosure, I chose to ditch the hitch but I could have kept it) yet is 10 fold more capable. You have to decide what your threshold is for 'performance' vs utility. You can turn your truck into a prerunner but then it's just about worthless for anything else.
LT shackles will lower the truck about an inch but will add that inch back in droop travel. In terms of 'leveling', you should have the ability to adjust your coilovers up or down for the ride/height you desire.
I have a Deaver +3 pack with a LT shackle - so yes, I would recommend it
You can absolutely swap out the 2.5 for 3.0s without changing anything OR you can run the 2.5s. Remember, the shocks control the deceleration of the suspension (hence the name, they control the 'shock' of suspension movement from an obstacle) - ergo a larger unit will outperform a smaller unit - if you run with an empty bed, the 2.5s are probably ok until you start running harder. LOTs of Raptor guys just add deavers or nationals and an RPG bump kit and leave the factory Raptor shocks on the rear. Believe it or not, some keep the fronts but swap in a heavier spring from Eibach and rave about the results - still not as good as a 3.0 but much better than factory.
This pretty much points to something like the Dirt King setup so you can increase your capability but retain the front coilovers you currently have. IIRC TAP Auto indicated that there is a 'modification' used to run the 8" stroke coilovers with the Dirt King kit - that 'should' mean that if you decide to upgrade to a 10" stroke 3.0 at a later date, you could remove the spacer or whatever its and bam! I'd call the guys at Dirt King and verify before I spent the money (like do they have a kit for your year group, able to use 10" stroke coilovers, etc...).
Hope this helps.
Is there any performance difference in going with the Icon Billet 1" versus the Alpha 1 1.5" ?
When you say there is a difference in the stroke of the 2.5 to 3.0 are the shocks themselves 2" taller or just the amount they move? I currently have my 2.5's set up at 27mm above the locking collar but would enjoy just having them set at the stock height they come from direct from Fox because from what i hear raising the coil overs can degrade ride quality the higher you raise them, even by just an inch. I don't know if they make it worse because i had them set that high from the get go and i love the ride quality. Any performance disadvantages to having them raised a little? Id be worried if i lowered them down an inch i might loose clearance for the 35's on 18's on planning on doing.
I think based on your advice id like to finish tackling the rear end first as all it would require was the funding to get the triple bypass and some limit straps all though I'm not running a spring under set up so would i even need those? Not to delve in too much to it but can you give me a price point for setting up the leafs in a spring under config? Id like to run the 3.0's out back until next year when i can convert the front end to full raptor.
02-11-2014, 08:46 PM
#22
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Wow, i can't say thank you enough that helps a lot with future decisions in the next year of this build. Here is a couple follow up questions... Is there any performance difference in going with the Icon Billet 1" versus the Alpha 1 1.5" ? When you say there is a difference in the stroke of the 2.5 to 3.0 are the shocks themselves 2" taller or just the amount they move? I currently have my 2.5's set up at 27mm above the locking collar but would enjoy just having them set at the stock height they come from direct from Fox because from what i hear raising the coil overs can degrade ride quality the higher you raise them, even by just an inch. I don't know if they make it worse because i had them set that high from the get go and i love the ride quality. Any performance disadvantages to having them raised a little? Id be worried if i lowered them down an inch i might loose clearance for the 35's on 18's on planning on doing. I think based on your advice id like to finish tackling the rear end first as all it would require was the funding to get the triple bypass and some limit straps all though I'm not running a spring under set up so would i even need those? Not to delve in too much to it but can you give me a price point for setting up the leafs in a spring under config? Id like to run the 3.0's out back until next year when i can convert the front end to full raptor.
Shocks are physically larger - a 10" stroke shock (like what comes on a Raptor) won't fit where an 8" stroke shock was (like a factory non Raptor f150) without modification.
By running the front coils so it 'lifts' the truck, you are preloading the spring - essentially taking away a small amount of the 'softer ride' section of the spring. Those springs are multi rate springs, they get stiffer the more they are compressed. By backing them off a tad the truck will ride a bit softer. Whether it's better or not is totally subjective.
Factory is spring-over (leaf springs on top of the axle). That's what I have, I'm just running Deavers and ditched the factory lift blocks. Spring-under moves the axle on top of the springs and would require notching the frame. It's a bit of a middle step and IMO if you are going to cut the frame - go all the way and 4-link it. RPG is working on a 4-link kit right now. My straps came with my cantilever kit - probably overkill.
02-11-2014, 09:21 PM
#23
No performance difference between the 1" and 1.5" UNI. Both are overkill for us mortals.
Shocks are physically larger - a 10" stroke shock (like what comes on a Raptor) won't fit where an 8" stroke shock was (like a factory non Raptor f150) without modification.
By running the front coils so it 'lifts' the truck, you are preloading the spring - essentially taking away a small amount of the 'softer ride' section of the spring. Those springs are multi rate springs, they get stiffer the more they are compressed. By backing them off a tad the truck will ride a bit softer. Whether it's better or not is totally subjective.
Factory is spring-over (leaf springs on top of the axle). That's what I have, I'm just running Deavers and ditched the factory lift blocks. Spring-under moves the axle on top of the springs and would require notching the frame. It's a bit of a middle step and IMO if you are going to cut the frame - go all the way and 4-link it. RPG is working on a 4-link kit right now. My straps came with my cantilever kit - probably overkill.
Shocks are physically larger - a 10" stroke shock (like what comes on a Raptor) won't fit where an 8" stroke shock was (like a factory non Raptor f150) without modification.
By running the front coils so it 'lifts' the truck, you are preloading the spring - essentially taking away a small amount of the 'softer ride' section of the spring. Those springs are multi rate springs, they get stiffer the more they are compressed. By backing them off a tad the truck will ride a bit softer. Whether it's better or not is totally subjective.
Factory is spring-over (leaf springs on top of the axle). That's what I have, I'm just running Deavers and ditched the factory lift blocks. Spring-under moves the axle on top of the springs and would require notching the frame. It's a bit of a middle step and IMO if you are going to cut the frame - go all the way and 4-link it. RPG is working on a 4-link kit right now. My straps came with my cantilever kit - probably overkill.
What, if any, is the advantage of buying shocks from a company who "tunes" them for you? Would i just be better off with a QAB option and changing them around as i please or does more go into it then that? Ive noticed about a $200-$300 markup for shocks that come "tuned"? As a prospective buyer thats a pretty big price increase for something that i can't find much info on what goes in to it other then "its tuned good"
02-11-2014, 09:39 PM
#24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Just reviewed your build thread pics and yea idk why i thought you had a spring under lol 4 link is WAY overkill for me so thats not an option, triple bypass + Deavers is where its at for me. What, if any, is the advantage of buying shocks from a company who "tunes" them for you? Would i just be better off with a QAB option and changing them around as i please or does more go into it then that? Ive noticed about a $200-$300 markup for shocks that come "tuned"? As a prospective buyer thats a pretty big price increase for something that i can't find much info on what goes in to it other then "its tuned good"
02-11-2014, 09:51 PM
#25
Tuned < External Adjustable ?
02-11-2014, 10:00 PM
#26
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Tuned = externally adjustable, IMO
Think about it this way, you pay someone to 'tune' your setup when the bed is empty then you decide to go camping for a three day weekend and have two other guys and 500lbs of gear in the bed - you are no longer tuned. With an externally adjustable setup, you just change to a stiffer setup and hit the trail.
Besides, it isn't like they aren't close out of the box - we aren't talking about a set of Ranchos after all.
Think about it this way, you pay someone to 'tune' your setup when the bed is empty then you decide to go camping for a three day weekend and have two other guys and 500lbs of gear in the bed - you are no longer tuned. With an externally adjustable setup, you just change to a stiffer setup and hit the trail.
Besides, it isn't like they aren't close out of the box - we aren't talking about a set of Ranchos after all.
02-11-2014, 10:48 PM
#27
Tuned = externally adjustable, IMO
Think about it this way, you pay someone to 'tune' your setup when the bed is empty then you decide to go camping for a three day weekend and have two other guys and 500lbs of gear in the bed - you are no longer tuned. With an externally adjustable setup, you just change to a stiffer setup and hit the trail.
Besides, it isn't like they aren't close out of the box - we aren't talking about a set of Ranchos after all.
Think about it this way, you pay someone to 'tune' your setup when the bed is empty then you decide to go camping for a three day weekend and have two other guys and 500lbs of gear in the bed - you are no longer tuned. With an externally adjustable setup, you just change to a stiffer setup and hit the trail.
Besides, it isn't like they aren't close out of the box - we aren't talking about a set of Ranchos after all.
02-13-2014, 02:25 AM
#28
Man a 4 link and a spring under set up are two completely different worlds! I wouldn't even consider putting a 4 link on my DD, now a spring under set up, for sure going on my DD haha.
02-18-2014, 11:41 PM
#29
LT Shackles
WarSurfer,
Im looking at adding some LT shackles and wanted to make sure I'm interpreting a post by KHC Dave correctly?
"on a side note I took some pics to show how much the rubber busings in the stock shackle limit the travel along with rubber spring bushings. They dont allow for full droop with shocks mounted in stock location. I losened them up and got 15 ins of travel- pic showing them loose and they fold all the way over. Poly bushings in the stock shackle would allow for this movement"
^ So long as the LT shackles uses a poly bushing i should be good to go with a company that offers that correct? Also he mentions "rubber springs bushing" is that in the shackle or does he mean the bushings for the shocks because the picture he has posted with that statement shows the point where the 3.0's are mounted to a stock rear shock mount which is whats confusing me. If I'm running 2.5's in the rear do they have upgraded bushings?
Im looking at adding some LT shackles and wanted to make sure I'm interpreting a post by KHC Dave correctly?
"on a side note I took some pics to show how much the rubber busings in the stock shackle limit the travel along with rubber spring bushings. They dont allow for full droop with shocks mounted in stock location. I losened them up and got 15 ins of travel- pic showing them loose and they fold all the way over. Poly bushings in the stock shackle would allow for this movement"
^ So long as the LT shackles uses a poly bushing i should be good to go with a company that offers that correct? Also he mentions "rubber springs bushing" is that in the shackle or does he mean the bushings for the shocks because the picture he has posted with that statement shows the point where the 3.0's are mounted to a stock rear shock mount which is whats confusing me. If I'm running 2.5's in the rear do they have upgraded bushings?
02-19-2014, 07:19 AM
#30
Senior Member
Thread Starter
WarSurfer, Im looking at adding some LT shackles and wanted to make sure I'm interpreting a post by KHC Dave correctly? "on a side note I took some pics to show how much the rubber busings in the stock shackle limit the travel along with rubber spring bushings. They dont allow for full droop with shocks mounted in stock location. I losened them up and got 15 ins of travel- pic showing them loose and they fold all the way over. Poly bushings in the stock shackle would allow for this movement" ^ So long as the LT shackles uses a poly bushing i should be good to go with a company that offers that correct? Also he mentions "rubber springs bushing" is that in the shackle or does he mean the bushings for the shocks because the picture he has posted with that statement shows the point where the 3.0's are mounted to a stock rear shock mount which is whats confusing me. If I'm running 2.5's in the rear do they have upgraded bushings?
2) you want to ensure your spring pack comes with poly bushings
The Deavers 'should' come with poly but it isn't hard to check and they aren't expensive if you need to buy them. I think the shock picture was meant to show extension, or the added extension (droop) by just loosening the bolts.
When tightened the rubber changes shape and clamps down, limiting travel. Poly won't do that but you will need to keep them lubed or they'll squeak.