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amp with agm battery.

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Old 02-20-2017, 01:14 AM
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Default amp with agm battery.

possibly installing a 2000w sub setup in my 2016 f150, never installed a setup in anything with AGM and battery monitoring. is there anything special i need to take into consideration?
Old 02-20-2017, 11:40 AM
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nope, it's all the same as far as the amp is concerned. the only think to think about pushing that much power, if it is a true 2000w RMS amp, would be the alt handling the load on those heavy bass notes to avoid dimming. upgrading your big 3 would be the first, and cheapest, step to consider next.
Old 02-20-2017, 12:24 PM
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ok thanks will do. any thoughts on adding a cap?
Old 02-20-2017, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jsdecorte
ok thanks will do. any thoughts on adding a cap?
Don't need a CAP
Old 02-20-2017, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jsdecorte
ok thanks will do. any thoughts on adding a cap?

agreed, no need for a cap. i've had this little article for many years and it still holds true today though most of the links are dead by now i would assume.

After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?

Before you get the truth to any of the above questions, chances are, you've probably spent $100 or more on one of these devices. However, let's study a little history regarding this issue.

A long time ago, in a land far away, 2 elves...Ok, Richard Clark & Wayne Harris (Carsound magazine and the inventor of DB Drag, respectively) separately came up with a solution to preventing their lights from dimming.

WHO WERE THESE GUYZ?

As you may know, Richard Clark is one of the founders of autosound2000 Tech Briefs, Carsound magazine, and a published author of the industry of mobile electronics. In SQ competitions, he posted a record of 1234 1st place finishes, and only ended up NOT 1st in his first event. I've heard that he had minor system problems, but judging by his record, he must have corrected it. (evidently, he needed a Capacitor )

Wayne Harris was previously a leader at Rockford Fosgate in their development. Later, in his free time, he created the organization we call DB DRAG. Wayne was the first SQ World Champion from the organization we know as IASCA (International AutoSound Challenge Association).

Both of these gurus are both legends, and considered the leading experts in the field. During their competition days, both guyz came up with a way to assist in the prevention of voltage drops. In SQ competitions, the look of your system is actually more important than the sound, and having your lights NOT dim under high playing levels is a competitive advantage.

As you may know, amplifiers are made up a bank of little capacitors, resistors, etc. What has been common engineering knowledge is that capacitors store energy, and more or bigger ones assist in balancing the power supply.

Wayne came up with the idea of putting several dozen 'little' (approx 100uF) capacitors on a circuit board to 'extend' the power supplies storage. At about the same time, or shortly afterward, Richard came up with the idea of one huge mondo capacitor (I believe it was 800,000uF or 0.8F) to do the job.

Eventually, Richard won. The large cylindrical tubes won over the complicated 48 caps strapped to a circuit board. However, what did this really accomplish? Let's start here:

WHAT IS A CAPACITOR?

Basically, capacitors are an energy storage device. Large, 1 Farad or more
capacitors store energy (electrons) between their plates. Capacitors differ
from batteries because batteries store energy in the form of chemical
energy--and rely on acid and lead plates, as the place of storage. For a more detailed
description of a capacitor, go here:

http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm

Then on the right hand side, scroll down to CAPACITOR. Keep in mind the use
of capacitors in an audio system.

WHY DO PEOPLE BUY CAPACITORS?

The number 1 reason would have to be because their lights dim when their
system is playing HARD. In car audio, we are told that a capacitor is
designed to prevent the voltage drop associated with your lights dimming.
The number2 reason is that it is rumored to 'improve' sound quality or
'stiffen' the power supply/source.

WHY DO MY LIGHTS DIM?

Headlights brightness is in direct proportion to the source voltage. For
instance, if your car is running, system voltage is ~12.5 -14.4 VOLTS. Your
lights will be much brighter than when your car is turned off--where battery
voltage is ~12V. Most car alternators put out between 75 to 120 amps of
current. When this current draw threshold of the charging system is
exceeded, system voltage will drop as power demands are now shared by the
alternator and the storage devices (battery & cap). We are using battery
reserves beyond this point until the demand lessens

When playing your system really hard. Your lights dim because your
alternator can't keep up it's charging voltage (around 13.5V) and therefore,
demand exceeds output. When this happens, your electronic devices are
dipping into the power storage of the battery. Since the battery stores
power at ~ 12-12.5V, there is a 1.3 to 1.8V drop in voltage available. This
in turn is why your lights dim down.

HOW MUCH POWER DOES A CAPACITOR STORE?

1 Farad = 100 joules or 100W/second
850cca battery = ~2,200,000 farads

For storage purposes, you'd need ~2,200 1 Farad capacitors to equal the energy of your battery.

Due to its impedence (ESR & ESL), a cap's energy is only 50% available. What's worse, is that in order for a 1 Farad cap to discharge, first the alternator output must have maxed out, and the voltage must have dropped around 1.5 volts. But I thought a cap was supposed to prevent that (voltage drop)!!!!!????? Yep, you got the point.


IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP?

My question exactly. Marketing is the reason why people buy caps. In many cases, upgrading wiring will help your system get the maximum transfer of current. Once that has been reached, adding a capacitor may have a minor effect on your system. 50W over the course of a second is not a lot of power considering an amplifier may draw 2000W to put out 1400 watts. Let's look at the situation from a resources standpoint.

Alternator 80 amps
Car accessories (minus stereo) 40 amps
A large Car Audio system (DRAWS ) ~200 amps AT FULL OUTPUT

In this case, you have 240 amps of draw, but only 80 amps of current from the alternator. In your case, you need 160 amps x 12 volts or or let's say 1920 watts of energy. Since a cap stores 50W, how much of a difference do you think it's going to make? A cap is basically a peashooter. W+e need a Howitzer cannon here, to do the job well.

Also, Once a cap is discharged, where does it get it's power from? The alternator, which is already overloaded. Once a cap is discharged, it's worthless. Like SWEZ says, ・.The cap already shot its wad, an does limp til recharged・ I知 not so certain I will allow him to babysit my kids, but you get the drift. (I never said it quiet like that... and oh...I'm great with kids!)

SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?

1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..


Please do not try # 6. New hairstyles are always refreshing, but if you are wearing railroad tracks across your teeth, you might have one big filling after it痴 over.

HOW CAN CAPACITORS IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY?

They can't. Sound quality is not dependant upon the presence of large bulky 1 Farad capacitors. How many 1 Farad Capacitors do you think the Boston Pops, Aerosmith, or Snoop dog use in the recording studio?

IN A NUTSHELL.......

When Richard, our fearless inventor, became World renown for winning every competition under the sun, people began copying what he did. Soon, every 'serious' competitor had a 'stiffening' capacitor--not to be confused with the 'loosening' capacitor.

WHY?

In the late 80s, people began sticking out their tongue when dunking the basketball because Michael Jordan did. Did sticking out your tongue improve your dunking ability? Same here with adding a capacitor to your electrical system.
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Old 02-20-2017, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jsdecorte
possibly installing a 2000w sub setup in my 2016 f150, never installed a setup in anything with AGM and battery monitoring. is there anything special i need to take into consideration?

I would agree.

The first thing you should do in the Big 3 with 1/0 wire.

Don`t forget your fuse holder or circuit breaker.

Forget the cap.........total waste of money.

Your alternator is fine.....200 amp from Ford but it you want or need to upgrade, the police F150 alternator is 240 amp.

Last but not least, a good Group 65 AGM battery.

XS Power D6500 or a NorthStar NSBAGM6500.

These batteries are not cheap so be prepared to spend between 300-360 for either of them.

Both of these batteries will blow away the Red or Yellow top and the NorthStar is made in the USA.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by GABAR; 02-20-2017 at 07:37 PM.
Old 05-14-2022, 05:41 PM
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Default Group 65 batteries

Originally Posted by GABAR
I would agree.

The first thing you should do in the Big 3 with 1/0 wire.

Don`t forget your fuse holder or circuit breaker.

Forget the cap.........total waste of money.

Your alternator is fine.....200 amp from Ford but it you want or need to upgrade, the police F150 alternator is 240 amp.

Last but not least, a good Group 65 AGM battery.

XS Power D6500 or a NorthStar NSBAGM6500.

These batteries are not cheap so be prepared to spend between 300-360 for either of them.

Both of these batteries will blow away the Red or Yellow top and the NorthStar is made in the USA.

Hope this helps.
Does the group 65 batteries fit in a 2018 F150 5.0 without modification or is there steps to getting a group 65 battery into my truck?
Old 05-19-2022, 02:35 PM
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Do not connect the ground directly to the battery. It will mess with the battery monitoring. Connect it to the Chassis if possible. If you have to connect it to the battery it needs to run through the current sensor on the Negative cable.
Old 05-20-2022, 08:06 AM
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You guys are wasting your time and money. These stock systems can handle over 3k watts comfortably. It's been already tested and proven many times over.
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Old 05-20-2022, 11:11 PM
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I know this is kinda bouncing around between threads but as was suggested to me maybe I’m pushing more power than I realize, perhaps some are not making the claimed power. 3,000 watts plus just seems like a lot for the stock electric. Are there any YouTube videos of these systems (honest question) I’d love to see the setups.




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