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Old 10-06-2012, 04:10 AM   #981
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So you agree that it is a ponzi scheme and that given a choice (like a true democracy) people will choose private and your top heavy government plan will fail due to lack of participation from the base
As Ronald Reagan once said, "There you go again!"

Good night John boy!
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:11 AM   #982
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Great post! It's like reading who is supporting a TV advertisement for a proposition in the next election! At least you know who has the axe to grind or who wants their bed to be feathered! Always look to see who is behind a proposition before signing one or voting for one! Who's spending a lot of money to go around the legislature? Humm!
Spending alot of money to go around the legislature? The dems on Obamacare comes to mind. That leads to more money to government which means more government control of citizens.

your proposition actually has some merit. follow the money and power
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:22 AM   #983
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Absolutely many people can analyze data and come up with different conclusions. The difference is government can set and change the rules mid stream where as private business can't, they abide by the rules set.
Have you ever tried to get a bureaucracy to shift? I have, easier said than done. The government CANNOT change the rules midstream, as the rules are usually set up in response to laws or federal regulations, and changes to regulations take a minimum of 6 months to a year to change.

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I'm not sure i get your power plant story, why couldn't they hire part time people?
Part time power plant engineers dont exist in Massachusetts because of regulatory requirements, pesky little things set in place after too many boiler explosions. It would theoretically be possible to hire a part time power plant engineer, however, the requirements for the license realistically preclude that possibility. The point to the story is that the statisticians and efficiency experts were hired to reduce complement in that particular operation. The data and regulations precluded actually doing so, but they still came out with the "desired" result. They got the numbers they were paid to find.


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A statistician may not be subject to partisan influence but i bet his boss somewhere up the chain is. So do you give up the job you need to pay next months rent, or do you give your boss the outcome they need to get the next promotion?
That's one reason government employees are difficult to fire, the system basically precludes that from occurring. Besides, the boss' next promotion depends more on the review panel sitting for whatever his/her next step might be, not the political appointee in charge.

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The inflation data is a perfect example, another is unemployment. When you stop counting people because they have "stopped looking or not receiving benefits". Are they not still unemployed? No I'm not taking those that choose to leave the work force, I'm taking those that exit due to lack of opportunity
And the BLS has been using the same metric for ages. It didn't change last week before the debates.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:14 AM   #984
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Default You know I'm wrong ... but how about this guy?

What I say is from a Moderate Liberal so of course automatically wrong, so let me quote Dr. Joseph Stiglitz the Nobel Laureate Economist that was on the Charlie Rose Show tonight:

"If we had the efficient healthcare systems of Europe we would have little or no national debt!"

Does that answer the question of why Obama put "The Affordable Healthcare Act" as a priority? Probably not, ..... but it certainly should! It's what Obama has been saying all along!


(The below is paraphrased because I couldn't write fast enough)

Our government policies like Capital Gains encourage making profits that create no value. If you buy land and sell it for three times as much you have not made more land or created anything of any value. You have just made a profit that created nothing, so why tax it less that a workman's sweat earned income? That's what much of Wall Street does today. It makes a profit while creating nothing of value like buying crude oil it can't even take delivery on, then manipulating the price and reselling a piece of paper for a huge profit! Nothing was created but higher gasoline prices! Why tax them at a lower rate than a working man's sweat earned income? It encourages investment that produce nothing of value!

The great inequality in this country is partially created by taxing investment far less that that of a working man's sweat earned income. Many are taxed only 14% for producing absolutely nothing but a profit for themselves!

If you travel around the world as I do you realize that we have a 3rd world infrastructure and the U.S. is becoming one of the industrialized nations hardest to improve yourself in, mainly because of our lack of investment in education. Germany is doing better than the U.S. because of it's apprenticeship program in education and its involvement of workers in corporate management.

Getting the public to spend more is not always good! Increasing consumption is not good particularly if it cannot be maintained by their good investments and savings! Over consumption is part of what caused the real estate bubble!

The diversity between the 1%, or maybe even the 1/10th of one percent and the 99% is weakening the democracy of the country due to the tremendous power of the wealthy to control the country. Example, the Congress is now being used to eliminate competition and create monopoly type payments form the 99% to the 1%. Drug manufacturers got Congress to pass a law that Medicare which is the largest purchaser of drugs in the world must pay the dictated price of the drug manufacturers without negotiation. It will cost trillions of dollars per decade. The Affordable Healthcare Act ends that which one of the reasons it is opposed.

These are only the ideas of the Nobel Prize winning economist... so what does he know!
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:18 AM   #985
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Spending alot of money to go around the legislature? The dems on Obamacare comes to mind. That leads to more money to government which means more government control of citizens.

your proposition actually has some merit. follow the money and power
Do you ever think about what you post! Obamacare went around the legislature! As General Colin Powell said to Romney recently, "Think Mitt! That's just not true!"

...but why do I try! LOL!
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:55 AM   #986
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The cost is not less, it's just shifted to seniors when they need the most care and can't afford it!

I'm a minor expert in healthcare programs after negotiating and designing them for about 27 years for 1500 teachers! I can tell you with absolutely no doubt that the voucher system approach to Medicare will kill it dead in a few years as the insurance companies want! Due to the fact that the young and healthy will not have to contribute, (individual mandate) within a few years the increases in costs in healthcare will make it unaffordable! After it dies, we will only have the insurance company plans to chose from and be back to where we started spending nearly 19% of GNP for a mess that makes large profits for corporations and leaves so many not even covered! A slick trap that sounds good if you don't understand it, which is exactly what Romney is depending on!
Who in their right mind understands Obamacare. I still haven't heard one person read the entire thing. There are probably many hidden provisions that can't be explained. We know the overall idea of it but who truly knows. If its so great why does Congress have the choice to opt out? Why will Mr President Obama not be on it? Again I don't need government making decisions about my healthcare for me. I get to pay for a person who doesn't care at all about their health and well being. People who eat like crap, drink alcohol and smoke 7 days isn't my problem. Sorry
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:01 AM   #987
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What I say is from a Moderate Liberal so of course automatically wrong, so let me quote Dr. Joseph Stiglitz the Nobel Laureate Economist that was on the Charlie Rose Show tonight:

"If we had the efficient healthcare systems of Europe we would have little or no national debt!"

Does that answer the question of why Obama put "The Affordable Healthcare Act" as a priority? Probably not, ..... but it certainly should! It's what Obama has been saying all along!

(The below is paraphrased because I couldn't write fast enough)

Our government policies like Capital Gains encourage making profits that create no value. If you buy land and sell it for three times as much you have not made more land or created anything of any value. You have just made a profit that created nothing, so why tax it less that a workman's sweat earned income? That's what much of Wall Street does today. It makes a profit while creating nothing of value like buying crude oil it can't even take delivery on, then manipulating the price and reselling a piece of paper for a huge profit! Nothing was created but higher gasoline prices! Why tax them at a lower rate than a working man's sweat earned income? It encourages investment that produce nothing of value!

The great inequality in this country is partially created by taxing investment far less that that of a working man's sweat earned income. Many are taxed only 14% for producing absolutely nothing but a profit for themselves!

If you travel around the world as I do you realize that we have a 3rd world infrastructure and the U.S. is becoming one of the industrialized nations hardest to improve yourself in, mainly because of our lack of investment in education. Germany is doing better than the U.S. because of it's apprenticeship program in education and its involvement of workers in corporate management.

Getting the public to spend more is not always good! Increasing consumption is not good particularly if it cannot be maintained by their good investments and savings! Over consumption is part of what caused the real estate bubble!

The diversity between the 1%, or maybe even the 1/10th of one percent and the 99% is weakening the democracy of the country due to the tremendous power of the wealthy to control the country. Example, the Congress is now being used to eliminate competition and create monopoly type payments form the 99% to the 1%. Drug manufacturers got Congress to pass a law that Medicare which is the largest purchaser of drugs in the world must pay the dictated price of the drug manufacturers without negotiation. It will cost trillions of dollars per decade. The Affordable Healthcare Act ends that which one of the reasons it is opposed.

These are only the ideas of the Nobel Prize winning economist... so what does he know!
Once again this is America. Most major airports have flights leaving for Europe daily.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:16 AM   #988
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You've bought into the propaganda of those making the profits! What you say about European healthcare is just wrong. Do you really thing all of the Europeans are that dumb? Look up independent healthcare outcomes in Northern Europe and they will disagree with the propaganda you've been given! European healthcare systems operate on a Kia budget because they are far more efficient, the profit is gone, and overhead is reduced because all the insurance company billing is gone. U.S. Medicare has lower operating costs than any U.S. insurance program.

How about Romney's lies/spin:

The amount of money Romney say's Obama took out of Medicare is described below. Notice the difference in money between spent between "Public" Medicare which most people have and "Private" Medicare Advantage (HMO) That's what Obama took away from the insurance companies and put into Obamacare! Good for him! We were getting ripped off by a deal cut in Congress to give more money to "Private" Medicare Advantage HMO! Now everybody gets the same money spent on them through Medicare and people lost no services.

NOTE THE FACTS: The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has found that administrative costs under the public Medicare plan are less than 2 percent of expenditures, compared with approximately 11 percent of spending by private plans under Medicare Advantage. This is a near perfect “apples to apples” comparison of administrative costs, because the public Medicare plan and Medicare Advantage plans are operating under similar rules and treating the same population.

(A recent General Accounting Office report found that in 2006 Medicare Advantage plans spent 83.3 percent of their revenue on medical expenses, with 10.1 percent going to non-medical expenses and 6.6 percent to profits—a 16.7 percent administrative share.)

Catch a few of Romney's lies and you'll start to understand Romney's constantly changing positions he expects to get by with because they sound so good, but are dishonest!

(Also Romney said his plan accepted "pre-existing conditions! His staff tried to do damage control on that lie by saying reversing that information! They didn't want that obvious lie out there to be fact checked! He's very slick if you don't know the facts! Romney knows the facts.... he just lied to make his plan sound to his current audience!)
Once again you have based your opinion on insufficient data !

There are people on here that are a lot smarter than you and I. And I know there are those that can type and articulate far better than I ?

Unfortunately for you, it is you who has bought into the propaganda !

Let's just say that I am married into the healthcare system and leave it at that !
I see the abuse of the system on the front lines! I have first hand accounts of the people have 6 kids by multiple partners and none of them work !
Like I said, no magic bullit for this fix. I do not think that Obamacare goes far enough to regulate insurance companies ? I am of the mindset that the high costs associated with health care are largely due to law and lawyer driven regulations due largely to a fear of litigation? Malpractice insurance is largely a double dip by the insurance companies. In order to win a malpractice suit in most states, you would have to be dead or seriously harmed,prove intentional negligence, and find experts to support your claim. So you see the lawyers profit on the back side !
What you once again fail to recognize is that this country is largely based on risk /reward principle !

So with as much due respect as I can muster " Don't **** in my pocket and tell me it's rain?"

And since you seem to like Europe so much? I would be willing to throw in the first $500 to cover your moving expenses !
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:12 AM   #989
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What I say is from a Moderate Liberal so of course automatically wrong, so let me quote Dr. Joseph Stiglitz the Nobel Laureate Economist that was on the Charlie Rose Show tonight:

"If we had the efficient healthcare systems of Europe we would have little or no national debt!"

Does that answer the question of why Obama put "The Affordable Healthcare Act" as a priority? Probably not, ..... but it certainly should! It's what Obama has been saying all along!


(The below is paraphrased because I couldn't write fast enough)

Our government policies like Capital Gains encourage making profits that create no value. If you buy land and sell it for three times as much you have not made more land or created anything of any value. You have just made a profit that created nothing, so why tax it less that a workman's sweat earned income? That's what much of Wall Street does today. It makes a profit while creating nothing of value like buying crude oil it can't even take delivery on, then manipulating the price and reselling a piece of paper for a huge profit! Nothing was created but higher gasoline prices! Why tax them at a lower rate than a working man's sweat earned income? It encourages investment that produce nothing of value!

The great inequality in this country is partially created by taxing investment far less that that of a working man's sweat earned income. Many are taxed only 14% for producing absolutely nothing but a profit for themselves!

If you travel around the world as I do you realize that we have a 3rd world infrastructure and the U.S. is becoming one of the industrialized nations hardest to improve yourself in, mainly because of our lack of investment in education. Germany is doing better than the U.S. because of it's apprenticeship program in education and its involvement of workers in corporate management.

Getting the public to spend more is not always good! Increasing consumption is not good particularly if it cannot be maintained by their good investments and savings! Over consumption is part of what caused the real estate bubble!

The diversity between the 1%, or maybe even the 1/10th of one percent and the 99% is weakening the democracy of the country due to the tremendous power of the wealthy to control the country. Example, the Congress is now being used to eliminate competition and create monopoly type payments form the 99% to the 1%. Drug manufacturers got Congress to pass a law that Medicare which is the largest purchaser of drugs in the world must pay the dictated price of the drug manufacturers without negotiation. It will cost trillions of dollars per decade. The Affordable Healthcare Act ends that which one of the reasons it is opposed.

These are only the ideas of the Nobel Prize winning economist... so what does he know!
And what all this comes back to is a fair and equitable tax code ! Obama care before a tax fix is like the cart in front of the horse ! If you don't have the money then you can't afford it ! Duh !

Now you really are confusing me ? How can you be so well traveled, and still be part of the 47% ? Perhaps you are frauding the system?
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:09 AM   #990
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Do you ever think about what you post! Obamacare went around the legislature! As General Colin Powell said to Romney recently, "Think Mitt! That's just not true!"

...but why do I try! LOL!
Do you ever get tired of being wrong constantly? Reconciliation process was going around the senate to avoid a filibuster. As Ronald Reagan said "it's not that liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't true"
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