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Old 10-06-2012, 01:44 AM   #971
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You've bought into the propaganda of those making the profits! What you say about European healthcare is just wrong. Do you really thing all of the Europeans are that dumb? Look up independent healthcare outcomes in Northern Europe and they will disagree with the propaganda you've been given! European healthcare systems operate on a Kia budget because they are far more efficient, the profit is gone, and overhead is reduced because all the insurance company billing is gone. U.S. Medicare has lower operating costs than any U.S. insurance program.
So what you're saying is gov't is more efficient than private business?? The reason medicare costs less is because the gov't can run on deficits and debt indefinitely unlike a business. Another reason Europe may be more efficient is because their people are healthier and don't have such a prevalent percentage of people with diabetes and heart disease and other conditions. I could go on...
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:23 AM   #972
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So what you're saying is gov't is more efficient than private business?? The reason medicare costs less is because the gov't can run on deficits and debt indefinitely unlike a business. Another reason Europe may be more efficient is because their people are healthier and don't have such a prevalent percentage of people with diabetes and heart disease and other conditions. I could go on...
Boy have you drunk the Kool Aide and been fed the baloney like so many others! Medicare costs are figured year to year and it is far more efficient than private insurance because it has only a 2% overhead and no profit!

What you may be getting confused with is that Medicare can run in the red if more care is needed than what money has been payed in! That has not happened yet, but is possible in the future.

Hillary Clinton wanted "Medicare for all" which would have had every worker pay in young and old and therefore could have supported everybody's healthcare costs as they got older! The reason Great Britian and Israel, and so many others can cover everyone for 8% GNP is because: (1.) Everybody pays in and little is spent on the young when they are healthy, (2.) Overhead is very low because you are not billing and fighting with all the different insurance companies so therefore you don't need all those rows of people in doctor's offices and hospitals and doing stacks of insurance paperwork! (3.) There is no profit made by a insurance company that adds nothing to your treatment or care! Doctors and hospitals still are private businesses and do quite well because the have lost the overhead of doing insurance claims also! I saw an interview with a British doctor! He had a nice apartment in the city and a home in the country! He said he was doing quite well and would hate all the problems of the U.S. system! Of course Hollywood plastic surgeons making millions would not agree... but most of their huge fees aren't covered by insurance anyway! Movie stars can pay for their own boob jobs! LOL!

In Great Britain you register with the doctors you need, get healthcare and pay nothing! Watch Doc Martin on PBS and you'll see... and it's a good show! LOL! Don't fall for the Romney's propaganda protecting the 18+% of GNP we are giving to insurance companies! The rest of the world isn't stupid.... it has a better system people in this country have been scared away from! Go to Canada and see all the people laying in the streets dying from poor healthcare trying to crawl to the U.S. to be saved! LOL! You think they would put up with that? Come on! Their health outcomes are better than that of the U.S.!
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:25 AM   #973
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So what you're saying is gov't is more efficient than private business?? The reason medicare costs less is because the gov't can run on deficits and debt indefinitely unlike a business.
Less administrative overhead as compared to private insurance yields more money directed to the actual costs of taking care of people. People can bleat all they want about overcompensated government employees, but let's compare the administrative salary structures of BCBS vs. Medicare. Very few in the GS salary structure are making 6 figure salaries.

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Another reason Europe may be more efficient is because their people are healthier and don't have such a prevalent percentage of people with diabetes and heart disease and other conditions. I could go on...
It's actually very difficult to make comparisons like that. There are different metrics used by different organizations to decide what various thresholds for conditions like diabetes. There's almost no way to make an apples to apples comparison. Different metrics are used for everything from infant mortality to what static blood sugar level makes one diabetic. I saw just as many overweight people in Germany as I did in the US.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:10 AM   #974
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Less administrative overhead as compared to private insurance yields more money directed to the actual costs of taking care of people. People can bleat all they want about overcompensated government employees, but let's compare the administrative salary structures of BCBS vs. Medicare. Very few in the GS salary structure are making 6 figure salaries.

It's actually very difficult to make comparisons like that. There are different metrics used by different organizations to decide what various thresholds for conditions like diabetes. There's almost no way to make an apples to apples comparison. Different metrics are used for everything from infant mortality to what static blood sugar level makes one diabetic. I saw just as many overweight people in Germany as I did in the US.
At the same time you have to look at the number of employees needed to provide care to a certain amount of people. Does one entity employ more to do the same work? Average salary per person also. What are the cost of the benefits for employees government vs. private? The government has too many ways to manipulate numbers to achieve a desired outcome that i have a hard time believing them. If government can provide better care for less cost then why not give people a choice? The government plan or a voucher for a private plan. Then people could pick the better choice, less people on the government dole means less cost. The reason is because much like social security it is a ponzi scheme. They rely on those young and that never collect benefits to support the ones collecting. That is why they oppose private retirement accounts, then the government would not be able to pay out checks because they have spent the s.s. Trust fund and rely on people paying now
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:37 AM   #975
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[QUOTE=my67falcon;2081947] When I read your post it is almost as if it's straight from the liberal newsletter.

((( The same old baloney of saying what I said had to come from a liberal newsletter! How frigging insulting! Do I say all you can do is repeat Conservative newsletters like the Cato Institute... although you referenced it? I don't read Liberal newsletters at all! I have my own ears and my own brain! I am able to come to my own conclusions!)))


It doesn't matter what we say, post or prove. You are set in your views. I'm not bashing you for that but you do need to come to that realization. I've never berated you or called you names. I have always done my best to substantiate my responses when I disagree with you but that generally results in a mishmash response and random placement of quotes and re-quotes that still don't bolster your side. Then you get hateful or say you are done with the matter and act like I or others are to blinded or stupid to understand. You imply that the right is the 99% when it comes to a perceived prejudice towards a political party.

(((I think that charge is just B.S. and won't stick just because I don't lay down and agree with you! Show me where I've called you or any other person stupid or any other such word! Come on!)))

The comments made by a large number of those on the left towards Sara Palin, the Tea Party, Republicans and Libertarians (just to name a few) are off the scale.

(((I agree I don't have any respect for a Governor that supports her state leaving the union and then quits her sworn duty to go on a self promoting book tour! She even knived Senator McCain in the back in my view to put herself in the line light! You are 100% correct there!

I think the Tea Party has reason to be upset and want change, but many are ill informed based on their own comments! I respect most Libertarians, I just think a small libertarian government will get eaten alive by multi national corporations! We don't have ferries sinking and drowning masses of people as in many countries because we have a strong enough government to enforce regulations which irritates Romney and the Fat Cats! Too bad! Small government is a nice utopian idea, but very unrealistic! I do support their desire to get our noses out of every other part of the world and deal with our own problems at home!)))

The Republicans are not off the hook. I catch grief from them for us Libertarians spoiling local elections by supporting a Libertarian and thus "taking" a vote away from the Republican. I have never, ever been treated as bad as I have from Liberals though. I'm anything from simply ignorant, anti-government or a racist. None of these have I ever been called by a Republican.

(((So who are these horrible Liberals that treat you so badly? I'd agree if someone actually treats you like that! Where is this happening? I never see it! Who called you ignorant and a racist? Come on!)))

You like social programs and want the federal government to use tax dollars to fund everything from medical to education and a thousand things in between. You tout how other countries are doing it and are happy with their country's government taking care of them. I'm happy with sticking to the U.S. Constitution. The federal government has no legal right over education, nor medical or many of the other programs they are forcing upon the states.

(((I got your opinion and your interpretation of the Constitution! I just don't agree with you! As far as touting what other countries do, I'm simply willing to learn from other countries and evidently you believe "American Exceptionalism" means we know it all and do everything better! Gee I wish that were so! Please respond with a long list of what we are #1 in! I'll give you a couple to start with! We are #1 in citizens locked up in prisons and #1 in how much we spend for a healthcare that doesn't cover all our people and has very poor health outcomes! Let me guess! That's the fault of those Liberals! Am I right?

As to Romney's statement!

I'm not deaf! I'm not deaf! I heard his statement with my own ears! I don't need you or the biased Cato Institute to "spin" it for me, because I too stupid to understand English! I have three degrees and am reasonably well educated! I heard the frigging statement myself! You can drink Romney's Kool Aide and spin what he says if you need to deny what he actually has said, but I heard it myself with my own ears and don't need it explained to me! Talk about insulting someone's intelligence!

Sorry if I've gotten carried away, but this blaming people like me for misinterpreting what Romney clearly says gets really old!

He also clearly said our president justified the attack on the Embassy in Lybia in a statement Obama made six hours before the attack even occurred! How dishonest, self serving and unpatriotic was that to attack our president in the middle of an ongoing crisis where Obama was trying to protect American lives! If that's the kind of man you want as president I'm lost for words! Nobody should dislike Obama so much as to accept that lack of character in a president! He also attacked Hillary Clinton during delicate negotiations with China! A shameful lack of patriotism putting his ambitions before his country!

You also need to spin the fact he said in the debate that his healthcare plan allows pre-existing conditions too! Even his staff were trying to immediately back him out of that falsification before the fact checkers could report on it! Romney is very slick and smooth, but he has already proven over and over again that he will do and say anything to be successful in his long, long campaign to get hold of presidential power!

I respect your opinion although I don't understand it! Let's at least agree we both want the best for our country!)))
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:40 AM   #976
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The government has too many ways to manipulate numbers to achieve a desired outcome that i have a hard time believing them.
ANY statistician can twist the results of a data comparison to achieve a desired outcome.

An efficiency expert was brought in by the company my father worked for and they figured out that the power plant was overstaffed. Their reasoning? It took 3 people on shift at any given time to run the plant and meet government requirements for the operating license. Therefore, they needed to lay off one engineer and two firemen and hire (drum roll, please) a part time operating engineer and 2 part time firemen to cover for vacations and sick time on an as needed basis. Only one problem with that fantasy land: Given the requirements to get and maintain the licenses it would have been impossible to hire people to meet their "needs".

Give 10 statisticians the same set of data and whisper 10 different desired study outcomes, and you're going to get 10 different results.

Data can, and frequently is manipulated. Who is more likely to manipulate data? The government statistician who is still going to have a job in the morning regardless of the outcome, or a private study paid for by a private entity who has an axe to grind?

Government (GS level, not appointees) employees aren't really affected by party politics, because regardless of which parties are in charge, the numbers are the numbers. The skews come in when the data is published by organizations with agendas, for instance publishing inflation data which ignores the cost of food and fuel as opposed to the total CPI-U because they are too volatile in their pricing. What market volatility affects household spending more than food and fuel?

(I'm not saying government statisticians are saints, what I"m saying is that they are career employees, and aren't driven by an agenda, as opposed to a statistician hired by the Pew center to do a study. If they wants the Pew center to hire them for another contract, well.....)
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:57 AM   #977
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If government can provide better care for less cost then why not give people a choice? The government plan or a voucher for a private plan. Then people could pick the better choice, less people on the government dole means less cost.
The cost is not less, it's just shifted to seniors when they need the most care and can't afford it!

I'm a minor expert in healthcare programs after negotiating and designing them for about 27 years for 1500 teachers! I can tell you with absolutely no doubt that the voucher system approach to Medicare will kill it dead in a few years as the insurance companies want! Due to the fact that the young and healthy will not have to contribute, (individual mandate) within a few years the increases in costs in healthcare will make it unaffordable! After it dies, we will only have the insurance company plans to chose from and be back to where we started spending nearly 19% of GNP for a mess that makes large profits for corporations and leaves so many not even covered! A slick trap that sounds good if you don't understand it, which is exactly what Romney is depending on!
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:03 AM   #978
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Originally Posted by gone postal

ANY statistician can twist the results of a data comparison to achieve a desired outcome.

An efficiency expert was brought in by the company my father worked for and they figured out that the power plant was overstaffed. Their reasoning? It took 3 people on shift at any given time to run the plant and meet government requirements for the operating license. Therefore, they needed to lay off one engineer and two firemen and hire (drum roll, please) a part time operating engineer and 2 part time firemen to cover for vacations and sick time on an as needed basis. Only one problem with that fantasy land: Given the requirements to get and maintain the licenses it would have been impossible to hire people to meet their "needs".

Give 10 statisticians the same set of data and whisper 10 different desired study outcomes, and you're going to get 10 different results.

Data can, and frequently is manipulated. Who is more likely to manipulate data? The government statistician who is still going to have a job in the morning regardless of the outcome, or a private study paid for by a private entity who has an axe to grind?

Government (GS level, not appointees) employees aren't really affected by party politics, because regardless of which parties are in charge, the numbers are the numbers. The skews come in when the data is published by organizations with agendas, for instance publishing inflation data which ignores the cost of food and fuel as opposed to the total CPI-U because they are too volatile in their pricing. What market volatility affects household spending more than food and fuel?
Absolutely many people can analyze data and come up with different conclusions. The difference is government can set and change the rules mid stream where as private business can't, they abide by the rules set. I'm not sure i get your power plant story, why couldn't they hire part time people? A statistician may not be subject to partisan influence but i bet his boss somewhere up the chain is. So do you give up the job you need to pay next months rent, or do you give your boss the outcome they need to get the next promotion? The inflation data is a perfect example, another is unemployment. When you stop counting people because they have "stopped looking or not receiving benefits". Are they not still unemployed? No I'm not taking those that choose to leave the work force, I'm taking those that exit due to lack of opportunity
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:03 AM   #979
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Originally Posted by gone postal View Post
ANY statistician can twist the results of a data comparison to achieve a desired outcome.

An efficiency expert was brought in by the company my father worked for and they figured out that the power plant was overstaffed. Their reasoning? It took 3 people on shift at any given time to run the plant and meet government requirements for the operating license. Therefore, they needed to lay off one engineer and two firemen and hire (drum roll, please) a part time operating engineer and 2 part time firemen to cover for vacations and sick time on an as needed basis. Only one problem with that fantasy land: Given the requirements to get and maintain the licenses it would have been impossible to hire people to meet their "needs".

Give 10 statisticians the same set of data and whisper 10 different desired study outcomes, and you're going to get 10 different results.

Data can, and frequently is manipulated. Who is more likely to manipulate data? The government statistician who is still going to have a job in the morning regardless of the outcome, or a private study paid for by a private entity who has an axe to grind?

Government (GS level, not appointees) employees aren't really affected by party politics, because regardless of which parties are in charge, the numbers are the numbers. The skews come in when the data is published by organizations with agendas, for instance publishing inflation data which ignores the cost of food and fuel as opposed to the total CPI-U because they are too volatile in their pricing. What market volatility affects household spending more than food and fuel?

(I'm not saying government statisticians are saints, what I"m saying is that they are career employees, and aren't driven by an agenda, as opposed to a statistician hired by the Pew center to do a study. If they wants the Pew center to hire them for another contract, well.....)
Great post! It's like reading who is supporting a TV advertisement for a proposition in the next election! At least you know who has the axe to grind or who wants their bed to be feathered! Always look to see who is behind a proposition before signing one or voting for one! Who's spending a lot of money to go around the legislature? Humm!
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:07 AM   #980
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The cost is not less, it's just shifted to seniors when they need the most care and can't afford it!

I'm a minor expert in healthcare programs after negotiating and designing them for about 27 years for 1500 teachers! I can tell you with absolutely no doubt that the voucher system approach to Medicare will kill it dead in a few years as the insurance companies want! Due to the fact that the young and healthy will not have to contribute, (individual mandate) within a few years the increases in costs in healthcare will make it unaffordable! After it dies, we will only have the insurance company plans to chose from and be back to where we started spending nearly 19% of GNP for a mess that makes large profits for corporations and leaves so many not even covered! A slick trap that sounds good if you don't understand it, which is exactly what Romney is depending on!
So you agree that it is a ponzi scheme and that given a choice (like a true democracy) people will choose private and your top heavy government plan will fail due to lack of participation from the base
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