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Old 09-30-2012, 11:21 PM   #531
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Oh ya i saw that, what's wrong with that?
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:23 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by opinyawn

You muddy the issue! Of course no one is suggesting that Freedom of Speech be curtailed. The issue is commiting an act purposely designed to incite people to physical violence that may cost innocent people their lives. People who burn Korans or ridicule Mohammed just to create a riot must be held responsible. It is up tp a jury to decide whether they were simply expressing Freedom of Speech, or trying to get people to become violent!

If you print an article or make a movie saying that that you think a prisoner should be taken out of a jail and be lynched, and then the mob does just that..... do you get to hide behind Freedom of Speech? Both those that kill people and those who "purposely" incite them to a mob action should be responsible for the blood on their hands!

If ministers that burn Korans and those who ridicule anothers religion in a video or cartoon "at very least" have to wonder if a jury will decide if they encouraged others to take a life they might have to be more responsible!

Under federal law, a riot is a public disturbance involving an act of violence by one or more persons assembled in a group of at least three people. Inciting a riot applies to a person who organizes, encourages, or participates in a riot. It can apply to one who urges or instigates others to riot. According to 18 USCS § 2102 "to incite a riot", or "to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot", includes, but is not limited to, urging or instigating other persons to riot, but shall not be deemed to mean the mere oral or written (1) advocacy of ideas or (2) expression of belief, not involving advocacy of any act or acts of violence or assertion of the rightness of, or the right to commit, any such act or acts."
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Whether or not these actions incited violence, the violence you're all talking about is occurring in foreign countries, so your references to U.S. statutes is meaningless. Until they start rioting here, that is.
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Here's a good example of the approach around here that makes it difficult to have a discussion! I'm speaking to the morality of the issue as related to "Freedom of Speech" an Americans being killed, and you are making it an issue as to whether U.S. Statutes apply. It sort of dodges my moral point.... to make your point. Anybody an international lawyer on the thread? Not me, but I know U.S. citizens have been charged with crimes for planning sexual acts that actually will actually occur in foreign countries.

To be clear:

Do you think I should be able to say, or do something with impunity that is designed for the clear purpose of enraging some loons and that causes other people to die, and then be able to hide behind the 1st Amendment?
So you brought statutes and federal law into the conversation, someone else proved how it did not apply, then you berate them for addressing the federal law that YOU brought into the conversion.

sounds as if the moral argument was a deflection for a failed legal argument
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:25 PM   #533
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It most obviously did incite violence! Should it? Of course not, no argument... but it does! If I scream fire in a movie theatre people should not selfishly trample others either.... but it happens, and we hold the person who screamed fire responsible.

I'm not suggesting that no one can express an opinion about a religion, but when they commit an act designed to offend or attack anothers religion knowing that it may cause violence they must be held responsible!

If you approach a nice, young, married couple in a restaurant and express the opinion for all to hear, that the young woman is a skanky ***** do you have any reponsibility for the punch in the mouth you receive from her husband or are you just using your Free Speech to express an opinion! Silly example, not really! Burning the Koran or ridiculing Mohammed is a great offense to Muslims and some will turn to violence. If a jury decides that was your purpose you should not be allowed to hide behind Freedom of Speech and cause innocent people to die!
But what if someone were to make a documentary that the muslims concluded offended mohammed or whoever their god is, and they riot and kill people. Would you also then want those producers to be judged by their peers in that case? Also, your example of the women in a restaurant doesn't fit the argument, because you have turned it to someone directly (personal) which is commonly known as slander. Burning a koran or declaring mohammed a fake, or what ever, it is not the same as it is not direct (personal)_.

I see the point you are trying to make and I do agree with some aspects as some people will try to hide behind the first amenedment, abusing the priviledge that it affords. I just think some of the folks in middle east need to layoff the caffeine, their way to jittery over there.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:28 PM   #534
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If you are going to post a picture... Have a story to back it up.
There was a story to back it up, the price of gas at a point in time.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:30 PM   #535
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I agree, and that is exactly what a district attorney and a jury would have to decide based on the facts!

It's interesting how many people cannot separate my wanting people to be responsible for what they do that harm it might cause the death of others and supporting the 1st Amendment. They need to get the religion aspect out of it that clouds their logic!

Example: Let's say I printed in the newspaper that you were such a horrible person that you should not be allowed to live on this Earth with good people for whatever reason! The next day after reading what I said, a mob stormed your house and hung you in your front yard from a tree. Do I have any responsibility for your murder, or do we just say the mob was terribly wrong, but I was completely innocent and only expressing my Freedom of Speech!

Without the religion and Muslims mixed in it sounds different!
I would again say with this example you are mixing direct (personal) aligations with indirect (general) aligations. I see your point, I just don't hink it holds.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:33 PM   #536
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There was a story to back it up, the price of gas at a point in time.
He only posted the picture.

If you are going to post a picture, Have a story to go with it. <<< (Thats all i'm asking.)

Picture,story.... 1 post.... Dasit!
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:34 PM   #537
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I would again say with this example you are mixing direct (personal) aligations with indirect (general) aligations. I see your point, I just don't hink it holds.
I would make the point that it does not matter either way. An opinion is just that and those that chose to make it violent should pay. If there is no legitimate perceived danger on a personal level than free speech should apply
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:58 AM   #538
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That film is an excuse for violence.Those people hate us for any number of reasons, but I believe the big one is they don't like the intrusion of our way of life in their counties, but they can't stop it because of global telecom and travel. Our way of life empowers the individual, including women, and that is a big no-no. In their way of thinking, everyone does what the leader says, and everyone is equally poor (except the leaders). Just look at Egypt or Belarus or North Korea, to name a few. Or Burma. Or Russia. Or Ivory Coast. Or Sierra Leone. Or Congo. Or Syria. Remember Lebanon in the 80's? The Balkans in the 90's?

They don't give a rat's ***** about us bombing or fighting this or that - it's an excuse when they say that. They do that stuff to themselves. Those countries first and foremost, torment their own people. Beat them into submission. Then they fight their neighbors. The history books are full of thousands of years of the same old. We are experiencing in Afghanistan now the same thing that the Russians, Brits, the Persians, and Alexander the Great did. They all failed. Look at Russian history or European history. Their histories are the same as that of Central Asia.

Those people, the violent "mobs", they understand power and strength, and that gets their respect. They may say they want peace and harmony, but their actions say something else. The Israelis understand this.

But our current foreign policy is characterized by vacillating wimps spouting apologies and making excuses. What do you think Russia would do if one of their ambassadors was executed in an Arab country?
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:46 AM   #539
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But what if someone were to make a documentary that the muslims concluded offended mohammed or whoever their god is, and they riot and kill people. Would you also then want those producers to be judged by their peers in that case? Also, your example of the women in a restaurant doesn't fit the argument, because you have turned it to someone directly (personal) which is commonly known as slander. Burning a koran or declaring mohammed a fake, or what ever, it is not the same as it is not direct (personal)_.

I see the point you are trying to make and I do agree with some aspects as some people will try to hide behind the first amenedment, abusing the priviledge that it affords. I just think some of the folks in middle east need to layoff the caffeine, their way to jittery over there.
Again you mix whether those that attacked the embassy were justified! They were not! That is not the issue, so let's drop that part of the argument. That's not my point at all!

It also is fruitless to try to enforce our values on those Muslims that protested. Their values are a reality that can only be changed by education over time. Based on their experience with dictatorial government and our large presence in the Middle East they believe theses attacks on Islam are coordinated by the U.S. Government! Keep in mind that it is pretty well accepted that our government overthrew a democratically elected leader in Iran 33 years ago and installed a pro American military dictator. I won't go into all the other involvements of the U.S. in the Middle East! Simply many in the Middle East do not trust the U.S. and believe we are trying to control their countries. Now add in Muslim fundamentalist extremists to stir the pot and it all it takes is burning of Korans (which was done by both a Christian minister and our military personnel) to lead them to think there is a war on Islam.

Having said that, if a person knowing how these Muslims will react then purposely does something to enrage them and knowlingly puts other people's lives at risk they must be responsible for their actions. People have died!

A jury must decide if the person indicted was simply and genuinely trying to express an idea, or intentionally attempting to incite Muslims to break the law and riot putting lives at risk. I think there is a good case to be made that both the "Koran Burning Minister" and the "Maker of the Youtube Video" were not really trying to express some simple opinion or point of view protected by the 1st Amendment. I think both were trying to provoke an insult Muslims for their own bigoted reasons and in doing so caused deaths.

If we excuse these actions as freedom of speech we are in for another Crusades, and this one will likely involve more 9/11 type attacks and eventually nuclear weapons. Am I exaggerating. Before a bunch of Saudi Arabians flew airplanes into the Twin Towers I might have agreed....not now! We don't want this to be allowed to become a religious war in the eyes of the Muslims of the world, or everyone on this Earth is in trouble! You can't effectively threaten a religious zealot with explosives strapped to his chest! What are you going to do, kill him!

For those Pres. Bush "Bring it on!" types that want to play it macho, before we'll kill every Muslim that can attack us this world may be a cinder floating through space! If a person will strap explosives to his chest or fly an airplane into a building you might just consider we need to make him understand we aren't attacking his religion and culture. Playing "Last Man Standing" is a very costly game that may never end! The Israelis are tough and have lots of weapons, but their children will never be safe until they make peace with the Palestinians. Kill 10 terrorists and create 50 more! That may say something about our drone attacks when innocent people are killed! We may kill some Al Qaeda leadership, but very possibly also help their recruiting tremendously! Unintended consequences!

We are not going to change the tribal thinking of the Middle East in the short run, so maybe we should come home and try to change them by our democratic example..... not our soldiers and drones!
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:04 AM   #540
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You muddy the issue! Of course no one is suggesting that Freedom of Speech be curtailed. The issue is commiting an act purposely designed to incite people to physical violence that may cost innocent people their lives.
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No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope that it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen, if, entertaining as I do, opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The question before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty towards the majesty of heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren, till she transforms us into beasts. In this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and to provide for it.

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided; and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years, to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House? Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with these war-like preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled, that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motives for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us; they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer on the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves longer. Sir, we have done everything that could be done, to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne. In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free—if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending—if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained, we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of Hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance, by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of the means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations; and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat, but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable—and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come!

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry peace, peace—but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take: but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!
You sir are wrong!
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