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Old 09-30-2012, 06:10 PM   #501
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In reality, you almost can never accurately tell the results of things like that! I know a few people that got gas guzzler/polluters off the road and bought a new car. Maybe that is a good thing! It only helped people towards the bottom. I didn't have a car that qualified.... but that's OK.... because it means I'm doing OK!

To some, if Obama had anything to do with it is has to be bad! End of story!

I think it's great Bush supported fighting AIDS around the world and Nixon decided to bring China into our world with Capitalism instead of fighting them! When you are right, your'e right! Unless you are Obama!
Everything can be quantified if you are willing to find the data, sift thorugh it, and study it. Accuracy of it can be debated, and if politics are involved, i bet each sides data will have a different story to tell.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:15 PM   #502
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@Red1994ford

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploa...it2_resize.jpg

$3.28 in 2005....if you're getting bankrupted from fuel costs I think you have bigger fish to fry.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:26 PM   #503
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@Red1994ford

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploa...it2_resize.jpg

$3.28 in 2005....if you're getting bankrupted from fuel costs I think you have bigger fish to fry.
Click the image to open in full size.
This is a high correlation with MidEast unrest. All the more reason for energy independence. This is the wholesale price of gas on the NYMEX. High gas $$ acts as a tax on American consumers and the funds go to countries that don't like us a whole lot.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:32 PM   #504
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I couldn't disagree more. That is a violationof our first amendment. ow many Christians rioted in NYC when an artist put a cross of Jesus in urine? None. How about the Jesus in feces statue? None. I am not an expert by any means on the muslim religion(s), nout what I have seen in the last 30 years is that there are too many of them that use their religion as a reason for violence. For example, anytime Mohamed (sp?) has been made fun of, drawn in a satirical way, or mentioned in bad light, a jihad is raised on that individual or country. Think of the cartoonist in Sweeden (think that was the country) Salmon Rushdi, the creators of South Park. It goes on and on. This (potential UN resolution) is a way to placate radical muslims (note I said radical). We (USA)will not give in and should not give in. Fortunately and unfortunately (sometimes) we have the freedom to say what we want.
You muddy the issue! Of course no one is suggesting that Freedom of Speech be curtailed. The issue is commiting an act purposely designed to incite people to physical violence that may cost innocent people their lives. People who burn Korans or ridicule Mohammed just to create a riot must be held responsible. It is up tp a jury to decide whether they were simply expressing Freedom of Speech, or trying to get people to become violent!

If you print an article or make a movie saying that that you think a prisoner should be taken out of a jail and be lynched, and then the mob does just that..... do you get to hide behind Freedom of Speech? Both those that kill people and those who "purposely" incite them to a mob action should be responsible for the blood on their hands!

If ministers that burn Korans and those who ridicule anothers religion in a video or cartoon "at very least" have to wonder if a jury will decide if they encouraged others to take a life they might have to be more responsible!

Under federal law, a riot is a public disturbance involving an act of violence by one or more persons assembled in a group of at least three people. Inciting a riot applies to a person who organizes, encourages, or participates in a riot. It can apply to one who urges or instigates others to riot. According to 18 USCS § 2102 "to incite a riot", or "to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot", includes, but is not limited to, urging or instigating other persons to riot, but shall not be deemed to mean the mere oral or written (1) advocacy of ideas or (2) expression of belief, not involving advocacy of any act or acts of violence or assertion of the rightness of, or the right to commit, any such act or acts.”
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:46 PM   #505
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You muddy the issue! Of course no one is suggesting that Freedom of Speech be curtailed. The issue is commiting an act purposely designed to incite people to physical violence that may cost innocent people their lives. People who burn Korans or ridicule Mohammed just to create a riot must be held responsible. It is up tp a jury to decide whether they were simply expressing Freedom of Speech, or trying to get people to become violent!

If you go to a jail and scream that you think a prisoner should be taken out of the jail and lynched and then hide behind Freedom of Speech, but it should be illegal to do so! Both those that kill people and those who "purposely" incite them should be responsible for the blood on their hands!

If ministers that burn Korans and those who ridicule anothers religion in a video or cartoon "at very least" have to wonder if a jury will decide if they encouraged others to take a life they might have to be more responsible!

Under federal law, a riot is a public disturbance involving an act of violence by one or more persons assembled in a group of at least three people. Inciting a riot applies to a person who organizes, encourages, or participates in a riot. It can apply to one who urges or instigates others to riot. According to 18 USCS § 2102 "to incite a riot", or "to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot", includes, but is not limited to, urging or instigating other persons to riot, but shall not be deemed to mean the mere oral or written (1) advocacy of ideas or (2) expression of belief, not involving advocacy of any act or acts of violence or assertion of the rightness of, or the right to commit, any such act or acts.”
I don't think I am muddying the issue. Burning a Koran does not in itself incite violence. It is the reaction of individuals who claim their prophet has been defaced/denegratd, or what ever they choose to say. Agian, how many catholics and christians have rioted in NYC with the defacement of Jesus? Again, none. If yo uwant to burn a Koran, you have te right oo. It doens't ean you are specifically trying to start a riot, it may be your means of expression. A poor one, yes, but allowed in the US. Our first amendment rights superceed radical religeous zealots. The 18 USCS § 2102 code is often referenced by radical sites (not all sites are radical, but this is a FAV). Yes, that is the code, but it is how the code is "interpreted" and it is also looks at the "intent" of an act. It will not hold up in US court of law unless the violater knowingly knew the outcome would happen and had the intent of that outcome or a combination. Again, first amndment will most likely superceed here.

I don't mean to misinterpret your answer this is how I read it.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:48 PM   #506
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Click the image to open in full size.
This is a high correlation with MidEast unrest. All the more reason for energy independence. This is the wholesale price of gas on the NYMEX. High gas $$ acts as a tax on American consumers and the funds go to countries that don't like us a whole lot.
I agree! The argument about drilling for oil is not about whether to drill or not. It is about drilling without rolling back protections for the environment. It's a matter of profits. We need oil and natural gas, but we don't need rivers with oil sludge on the bottom that can't be removed and people being able to light fire the water in their taps! It seems to my reading that Obama is trying to hold the energy companies to environmental protections and Romney will let the energy companies write their own regulations as Cheney did during the Bush administration. Corporations 1st responsiblity is making profits for shareholders and it always will be, so we need a strong federal government to keep these massive international corporations from putting profits before the environment.... and that's what libertarians always forget! A small, libertarian, federal government with no teeth will get pushed aside by Exxon and other massive companies as they put profits first!
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:51 PM   #507
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@Red1994ford

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploa...it2_resize.jpg

$3.28 in 2005....if you're getting bankrupted from fuel costs I think you have bigger fish to fry.

Oh im not... I filled my truck for the first time in a month yesterday! 22 gals into the 26 gal tank.

Just thought the pic was funny.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:54 PM   #508
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Remember, Reagan was down by 13 points in September to Carter.
Like the old line at a V.P. debate:

I remember Reagan, and Romney is no Reagan!

I disagreed with Reagan, but he had values he stuck to and that was respected!


....then again there was that "little Iran Contra thing" were Reagan made secret treaties with Iran behind the back of Congress! Imagine if Obama got caught doing that! Yikes!


One part of the definition of treason includes: The crime of giving aid or comfort to the enemies of one's government any act, writing, speech, etc., directed unlawfully against state authority.

Iran had just released U.S. hostages (for some unexplained reason on the day Reagan took office???) and the agreement Reagan made "secretly" was against the direction of Congress, ..... but then Reagan had a Teflon coating it seems!
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:54 PM   #509
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I agree! The argument about drilling for oil is not about whether to drill or not. It is about drilling without rolling back protections for the environment. It's a matter of profits. We need oil and natural gas, but we don't need rivers with oil sludge on the bottom that can't be removed and people being able to light fire the water in their taps! It seems to my reading that Obama is trying to hold the energy companies to environmental protections and Romney will let the energy companies write their own regulations as Cheney did during the Bush administration. Corporations 1st responsiblity is making profits for shareholders and it always will be, so we need a strong federal government to keep these massive international corporations from putting profits before the environment.... and that's what libertarians always forget! A small, libertarian, federal government with no teeth will get pushed aside by Exxon and other massive companies as they put profits first!
I agree. But, I don't believe that is what Bush/Cheney did, nor is there any evidence that Romney would do anything of this nature. there really is no hard evdence. Yes, some admins are too loose, but some are to rigid. And don't kid yourself, they are all in the pocket of big oil, one way or another. Self regulatory agencies (SRO's) are common. It's is a way of having industries take care of things without getting the governement involved. Probably both are needed, but either by themselves is most likely a disaster. They both try to reach to far.

Also, a large Liberal governement creates an entitlement state. No easy answers, but always easy to critique. I enjoy being an armchair QB, you always right after-the-fact.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:14 PM   #510
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Default Chavez & media

Hugo Chavez sure knows how to work the media. And here I am reposting it. He's a disease you can't cure, he keeps coming back. Sounds like he may have a tougher go this time around. It will be intersting to see what happens down there.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...09-30-13-22-59
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