Starter grinding tried literally everything
08-31-2015, 04:31 PM
#1
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Starter grinding tried literally everything
I dont know if this have been adressed here but I did a search first and didnt see anything so here ya go
Ok, here is the low down, I have a 1984 f150 4wd c6 with a 302. Due to poor oil pressure and exsessive miles I decided to purchase a crate 302 from the autozone (hold your opinions). I didnt do the work I havent the time I put it in a shop. upon receiving my truck back it was great but within a week the starter was grinding to the point of a no start condition. I returned it to the shop that did the install. they determined that the tranny had to go that at some point clearly a previous owner had through drilled the bell housing and through bolted the starter inplace this appeared to not allow the starter to index in the correct position and they replaced the trans with a matching salvaged unit, a new starter new fly wheel torque converter and separation plate. All parts were oem replacements so same tooth count fly wheel,was used type same starter ect. well the couldnt return it because the problem persisted now nothing is the same every part is new same problem. the mechanic in his glory and wisdom
(sarcasm) decided that the motor must have been machined untrue or some ration of ****, whatever, he talked the engine company into replacing the engine under warrenty so engine 2 now is installed new flywheel again same with starter. The thing still is grinding starters off I dont know where to look for help and I have read every article and forum online I can find. If any one has a clue they can offer me please help.
tldr starter grinding changed everything no same part exists same problem still HELP!
Ok, here is the low down, I have a 1984 f150 4wd c6 with a 302. Due to poor oil pressure and exsessive miles I decided to purchase a crate 302 from the autozone (hold your opinions). I didnt do the work I havent the time I put it in a shop. upon receiving my truck back it was great but within a week the starter was grinding to the point of a no start condition. I returned it to the shop that did the install. they determined that the tranny had to go that at some point clearly a previous owner had through drilled the bell housing and through bolted the starter inplace this appeared to not allow the starter to index in the correct position and they replaced the trans with a matching salvaged unit, a new starter new fly wheel torque converter and separation plate. All parts were oem replacements so same tooth count fly wheel,was used type same starter ect. well the couldnt return it because the problem persisted now nothing is the same every part is new same problem. the mechanic in his glory and wisdom
(sarcasm) decided that the motor must have been machined untrue or some ration of ****, whatever, he talked the engine company into replacing the engine under warrenty so engine 2 now is installed new flywheel again same with starter. The thing still is grinding starters off I dont know where to look for help and I have read every article and forum online I can find. If any one has a clue they can offer me please help.tldr starter grinding changed everything no same part exists same problem still HELP!
09-26-2015, 06:17 PM
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Sorry it has been so long, college is killing me, I didn't know I had received a reply. Anyway I could see the separation plate thickness and wear having potential for causing starter issues, however the bolts only pass thru this plate and bolt in to the bell housing. my issue is not the depth of the pinion engagement with the flywheel, but is instead the depth of the meshing of the gear teeth.
But as far as the flex-plate and the starter having been changed repeatedly and still not being correct, the only way I can believe that is if autozone is not suggesting the right part number for the truck, which I can believe to be very possible. Can anyone tell me the correct starter/flex-plate combo that would be correct for use with a C6, so that I can physically count/verify the tooth count and diameter of the one I need as opposed to the set I currently have.
I know right now the starter is a 9 tooth, but I am not sure of the flex-plate tooth count.
But as far as the flex-plate and the starter having been changed repeatedly and still not being correct, the only way I can believe that is if autozone is not suggesting the right part number for the truck, which I can believe to be very possible. Can anyone tell me the correct starter/flex-plate combo that would be correct for use with a C6, so that I can physically count/verify the tooth count and diameter of the one I need as opposed to the set I currently have.
I know right now the starter is a 9 tooth, but I am not sure of the flex-plate tooth count.
09-26-2015, 07:19 PM
#4
There are 2 different flex plates that are very close in tooth count. Don't remember the exact numbers but it's like 48 and 52.
Thing is the separator plate has to match the flex plate (which has to match the transmission torque convertor.
The way the separator plate works as a dowel plate is that the front of the starter has a raised ridge that exactly fits into the circular hole in the separator plate.
That holds the starter in exactly the right position to mesh with the flex plate (whereas just the 2 bolts alone would leave a little room for variance.
Hope you can follow all that. I know what I mean, but I don't know if I explained it clear enough.
Thing is the separator plate has to match the flex plate (which has to match the transmission torque convertor.
The way the separator plate works as a dowel plate is that the front of the starter has a raised ridge that exactly fits into the circular hole in the separator plate.
That holds the starter in exactly the right position to mesh with the flex plate (whereas just the 2 bolts alone would leave a little room for variance.
Hope you can follow all that. I know what I mean, but I don't know if I explained it clear enough.
10-01-2015, 11:10 AM
#5
Hi, I've read through your post and I do have something to add. That plate between your flexplate(AT), flywheel(MT), and the engine block serves no purpose other than to keep rocks and debris out of the flywheel and front of the transmission. On a Ford starter the top bolt has no adjustment but the bottom bolt does have some slight adjustment. Just loosen both bolts a little, twist the bottom of the starter towards the passenger side frame rail and tighten the bolts back down. The bolt threads into the bellhousing and the bottom starter hole is quite a bit larger than the bolt. If the starter is twisted toward the engine it will be very noisy and the engine will turn slow or not at all where the starter drive is in such a bind. I went through the same problems with a 400M. Changing starters and multiple flywheel ring gears before noticing how much play the starter had. I twisted it away from the flywheel a little and it's started fine for years. I hope this will fix your problem and help you keep some money in your pocket.
Last edited by Daniel Black; 10-01-2015 at 11:56 AM.
10-10-2015, 10:16 PM
#6
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Here's where to start!
"The separation plate is also referred to as the starter dowel plate because it lines the starter up with the flex plate.
So the separation plate is wrong, the flex plate is wrong or the starter is wrong. It has to be one of those three things. "
You're getting possible solutions from users and your mechanic, but a lot is being left out and can continue to cause you grief. You need to start at the beginning and I will try to help you.
1)If the separation plate lines up with the transmission, it is likely NOT an issue. The dowel plate / index plate IS NOT optional as one member said. It does not block debris, the inspection plate that bolts to the plate does this, it maintains the proper clearances. When things are put back they way they came originally, you don't wind up with strange issues like grinding teeth, rapidly worn transmission pumps, crank thrush bearing failures, etc.
2) Flexplate - again I doubt this is the issue. What pn flexplate was installed? Was it new? There are different flexplates with different diameters and tooth counts, but generally when the wrong one is installed it won't grind, it will either not get near the teeth of the flexplate (if the smaller flexplate is installed when larger needed), or hit the back of the plate (if larger...).
3)The starter does need to match, the flexplate, and of these three items, it is the most likely to be a possible issue. Even if the part number is correct (if it was replaced). Rebuilt parts are known to get mixed up or put back in the wrong box. A manual transmission starter might look the same, but have a different starter drive, tooth count on that drive.
4) While not mentioned, the three above items could be 100% correct and you could still have the following issue: On a 30 year old truck, cables, and cable ends can wear, ground straps get broken or not installed, etc. Especially after an engine swap. This can cause the starter to not get full voltage & amperage when engaged. This can cause the starter drive to not fully engage a flex plate and grind the teeth and it is a simple and often overlooked issue. A good mechanic wouldn't install an engine without ensuring a good ground strap or worn cable, but not all mechanics are as knowledgeable as they believe they are.
******If this turns out to be the issue, it doesn't mean that the current flexplate and starter haven't been damaged from the grinding. Ideally they should be replaced or at least VERY carefully inspected. If reused be sure to try starting the vehicle when cold, hot, etc. to ensure NO grinding shortly after its fixed. As you don't want the problem to reappear a few months later and you're SOL.
5) Other things to confirm. Where did the crate motor come from and what year(s) was it listed for. Was it a crate motor from FORD Racing, or another company that builds using a specific and later model block, etc. or is it an auto parts rebuilt motor that should be the same type as what was in your vehicle. How did the repair shop determine the correct parts to install? Did they just get parts for an 84 F150 or did they consider that the replacement motor might be different, or the existing engine already replaced in the last 30 years with a non-1984 engine/trans.
6) Bench testing: Personally, before I installed the replacement transmission and certainly the second engine, I would have put the flexplate on the torque converter when mounted onto the trans input shaft and then mocked up the index plate and starter. It might be better off to measure the thickness of the index plate and use washers to simulate its depth to allow better vision of the engagement. I would then have engaged the starter or pulled the drive forward to check the engagement. It's better to be sure the issue is gone, before putting it back together for the 2nd and 3rd tries.
You paid a garage and the mechanic obviously failed when he ordered a new engine and didn't fix the problem. You contracted with them to install the engine and it should work without grinding, so lean on them however necessary so they get this fixed.
If you get any grief from the auto repair shop, consider contesting the credit card charges (if you paid that way.) If not, you may only have social networking and the better business bureau to help you. Its best to be calm when discussing with them, but if they fail to guarantee they will address the issue let them know you aren't planning on giving up.
So the separation plate is wrong, the flex plate is wrong or the starter is wrong. It has to be one of those three things. "
You're getting possible solutions from users and your mechanic, but a lot is being left out and can continue to cause you grief. You need to start at the beginning and I will try to help you.
1)If the separation plate lines up with the transmission, it is likely NOT an issue. The dowel plate / index plate IS NOT optional as one member said. It does not block debris, the inspection plate that bolts to the plate does this, it maintains the proper clearances. When things are put back they way they came originally, you don't wind up with strange issues like grinding teeth, rapidly worn transmission pumps, crank thrush bearing failures, etc.
2) Flexplate - again I doubt this is the issue. What pn flexplate was installed? Was it new? There are different flexplates with different diameters and tooth counts, but generally when the wrong one is installed it won't grind, it will either not get near the teeth of the flexplate (if the smaller flexplate is installed when larger needed), or hit the back of the plate (if larger...).
3)The starter does need to match, the flexplate, and of these three items, it is the most likely to be a possible issue. Even if the part number is correct (if it was replaced). Rebuilt parts are known to get mixed up or put back in the wrong box. A manual transmission starter might look the same, but have a different starter drive, tooth count on that drive.
4) While not mentioned, the three above items could be 100% correct and you could still have the following issue: On a 30 year old truck, cables, and cable ends can wear, ground straps get broken or not installed, etc. Especially after an engine swap. This can cause the starter to not get full voltage & amperage when engaged. This can cause the starter drive to not fully engage a flex plate and grind the teeth and it is a simple and often overlooked issue. A good mechanic wouldn't install an engine without ensuring a good ground strap or worn cable, but not all mechanics are as knowledgeable as they believe they are.
******If this turns out to be the issue, it doesn't mean that the current flexplate and starter haven't been damaged from the grinding. Ideally they should be replaced or at least VERY carefully inspected. If reused be sure to try starting the vehicle when cold, hot, etc. to ensure NO grinding shortly after its fixed. As you don't want the problem to reappear a few months later and you're SOL.
5) Other things to confirm. Where did the crate motor come from and what year(s) was it listed for. Was it a crate motor from FORD Racing, or another company that builds using a specific and later model block, etc. or is it an auto parts rebuilt motor that should be the same type as what was in your vehicle. How did the repair shop determine the correct parts to install? Did they just get parts for an 84 F150 or did they consider that the replacement motor might be different, or the existing engine already replaced in the last 30 years with a non-1984 engine/trans.
6) Bench testing: Personally, before I installed the replacement transmission and certainly the second engine, I would have put the flexplate on the torque converter when mounted onto the trans input shaft and then mocked up the index plate and starter. It might be better off to measure the thickness of the index plate and use washers to simulate its depth to allow better vision of the engagement. I would then have engaged the starter or pulled the drive forward to check the engagement. It's better to be sure the issue is gone, before putting it back together for the 2nd and 3rd tries.
You paid a garage and the mechanic obviously failed when he ordered a new engine and didn't fix the problem. You contracted with them to install the engine and it should work without grinding, so lean on them however necessary so they get this fixed.
If you get any grief from the auto repair shop, consider contesting the credit card charges (if you paid that way.) If not, you may only have social networking and the better business bureau to help you. Its best to be calm when discussing with them, but if they fail to guarantee they will address the issue let them know you aren't planning on giving up.
Last edited by machviii; 10-10-2015 at 10:50 PM.
