2.7 ecoboost vs 02 5.4l?
09-09-2014, 10:36 AM
#21
Senior Member
You must have missed the video when Ford tested the 3.5L EB. They went full throttle (glowing red turbos) to shutting down with no flow and cycled it over 1,500 times with no oil change and had ZERO failure and coking. I'm also pretty sure the engineers have programming in the computer that will stop the engine only after certain preameters are met ( eg: temps, timing, etc.) Not just shut down because you let off the gas. The engines will also not start/stop when towing or 4WD for safety reasons.
"To validate their water-cooled turbo design choice, Ford engineers put EcoBoost through a special turbocharger test. The test ran EcoBoost at maximum boost flat out for a 10-minute period. Then the engine and all cooling were abruptly shut down and the turbo was left to “bake” after this high-speed operation. If that sounds severe, imagine repeating this cycle 1,500 times without an oil change. That’s what EcoBoost’s turbos endured.
After 1,500 cycles, the turbos were cut open for detailed technical examination. The turbos passed the severe test with flying colors.
“We’ve attained things here the customer would never be able to do in their vehicle,” Plagens said. “Ten minutes of peak power (355 hp, 350 foot-pounds of torque) is something that’s probably only achievable in a vehicle for fractions of a minute, 10 seconds maybe in the extreme. We run it for 10 minutes many, many times over, and that’s far, far more harsh and severe than a vehicle test would be.”
EcoBoost also endured Ford’s standard engine durability test signoff. Back in the dynamometer lab, the 3.5-liter EcoBoost V-6 went back up to full revs – and maximum turbo boost – for a real endurance test. This time the duration was a bit longer – 362 hours at full throttle. That’s like running the 24 Hours of Daytona for more than 15 days straight.
Other tests subjected EcoBoost to a grueling range of operating temperatures.
“We run all of our durability testing at the maximum temperature,” Plagens said. “For the turbos, the test is 150 hours long. Every 10 minutes the test alternates between peak power at max exhaust temperature and completely cold motoring. The goal is to verify that the turbochargers can withstand extreme thermal cycling without affecting their performance. It’s pretty brutal and extreme but it’s important to prove out durability.
Making the Grade
As the first Ford EcoBoost engine makes its production debut, it has earned its stripes in Ford’s engine boot camp. It uses that same grade of 5W20 engine oil specified by Ford for gasoline engines, and oil changes are scheduled at the same 7,500-mile intervals, too.
“Ford customers can be sure that their new EcoBoost engine requires no special treatment for its reliable operation,” Shelby said. “EcoBoost owners can pull in their driveways and switch off just like any other engine, and there’s no special oil or shorter oil-change intervals. That means the owner can concentrate on enjoying the great performance and fuel economy.”
”
"To validate their water-cooled turbo design choice, Ford engineers put EcoBoost through a special turbocharger test. The test ran EcoBoost at maximum boost flat out for a 10-minute period. Then the engine and all cooling were abruptly shut down and the turbo was left to “bake” after this high-speed operation. If that sounds severe, imagine repeating this cycle 1,500 times without an oil change. That’s what EcoBoost’s turbos endured.
After 1,500 cycles, the turbos were cut open for detailed technical examination. The turbos passed the severe test with flying colors.
“We’ve attained things here the customer would never be able to do in their vehicle,” Plagens said. “Ten minutes of peak power (355 hp, 350 foot-pounds of torque) is something that’s probably only achievable in a vehicle for fractions of a minute, 10 seconds maybe in the extreme. We run it for 10 minutes many, many times over, and that’s far, far more harsh and severe than a vehicle test would be.”
EcoBoost also endured Ford’s standard engine durability test signoff. Back in the dynamometer lab, the 3.5-liter EcoBoost V-6 went back up to full revs – and maximum turbo boost – for a real endurance test. This time the duration was a bit longer – 362 hours at full throttle. That’s like running the 24 Hours of Daytona for more than 15 days straight.
Other tests subjected EcoBoost to a grueling range of operating temperatures.
“We run all of our durability testing at the maximum temperature,” Plagens said. “For the turbos, the test is 150 hours long. Every 10 minutes the test alternates between peak power at max exhaust temperature and completely cold motoring. The goal is to verify that the turbochargers can withstand extreme thermal cycling without affecting their performance. It’s pretty brutal and extreme but it’s important to prove out durability.
Making the Grade
As the first Ford EcoBoost engine makes its production debut, it has earned its stripes in Ford’s engine boot camp. It uses that same grade of 5W20 engine oil specified by Ford for gasoline engines, and oil changes are scheduled at the same 7,500-mile intervals, too.
“Ford customers can be sure that their new EcoBoost engine requires no special treatment for its reliable operation,” Shelby said. “EcoBoost owners can pull in their driveways and switch off just like any other engine, and there’s no special oil or shorter oil-change intervals. That means the owner can concentrate on enjoying the great performance and fuel economy.”
”
Beyond that, a lot of what you quoted above is merely marketing. Any turbocharged engine can and will glow the turbos at some point... and some of them even in daily commutes. "To validate their water-cooled turbo design choice, Ford engineers put EcoBoost through a special turbocharger test." What are their other alternatives? an air/oil only cooled turbo? That's abviously a disaster waiting to happen. Anyone could tell you that. Just because it is better than the alternative does not mean its ideal, which is why I asked about electric oil and water pumps... I have another companies twin-turbo 2.7L (no relation just concidence) sitting in my driveway right now. I can tell you from personal experience that if I take it out and flog it a little bit then put it back in the driveway, leave it running (so water and oil is still flowing through it) and just watch the turbo itself, I can see it continue to physically glow for over a minute... or longer - I dont recall. I do remember being surprised at how long it took to come down to a temp I felt safe to turn it off thinking.
Secondly, I'm not condemning the thing, so dont see it that way. I am simply drawing conclusions and asking questions based on past experiences / known issues. As for their test... they did it 1500 times in that test. If the engine stops and starts an average of 10x per time you drive it, thats 150 outings. If it does it on the trip home too, that means 75 "outings". If you do this 5 days a week (for your job, commute, or whatever) that ends up being over 5,000 stop/starts per year. Realistically that 1500 times they did in that test "don't amount to a hill of beans".
Lastly, I have to LOL @ "special turbocharger test" I love when companies use words like "special". Marketing giving you that warm and fuzzy feeling... just like the "Military-Grade" aluminum body... yes its aluminum, yes it will work just fine, but they go throwing that "military-grade" crap out there to make you think its something special. (theres that word again)
I haven't been heavily involved with Subaru sites in a couple of years, but I've never heard of any systemic coking problems in Subarus water cooled turbocharger. Many people run regular dino oil (that meats the manufactures specs) their entire vehicle lifetimes, with no cooldown, and experience zero issues. Thermosiphon is enough in those applications, based on my observations. In my 05 there is actually an upper resivor to enhance that process.
Weather it's enough in a start/stop cycle, I wouldn't know. I would imagine it would be simple enough to model the expected temperature of the turbo in the ECU based on load, and if it's at a point that would exceed the cooling capacity if stopped: disable the auto start/stop.
Weather it's enough in a start/stop cycle, I wouldn't know. I would imagine it would be simple enough to model the expected temperature of the turbo in the ECU based on load, and if it's at a point that would exceed the cooling capacity if stopped: disable the auto start/stop.
To all...
I'm not trying to condemn any brand and I am a huge Ford fan. I'm just speaking to a known issue with turbocharged gassers. They make turbo timers for a reason. Turbo cars often come with little warnings in their owners manual about shutting them down after working them hard, for a reason. I'm curious to know what if anything Ford has done to alleviate this. Your SuperCrew with 5 family members in it, camping supplies and firewood in the bed and a 5,000 travel trailer in tow is a far cry from your daughter in her 1.8T VW Beetle on her way to high school. Spoiler: The one that sounds less likely of the two has known sludge/oil coking problems. It also has an oil/water cooled turbo, has an additional oil cooler, specs the highest grade oils, and is not even equipped with auto stop/start. See the issue?
Last edited by SuperCruzin; 09-09-2014 at 11:27 AM.
09-09-2014, 03:46 PM
#22
So I'm finally at the point in my life where I can buy my first new vehicle and a 2015 f150 is looking better everyday. My question here though is that my current truck is a 2002 f150 with the 5.4l. From my understanding it puts out 260 hp and around 350 torque. So as much as I'd love to get the new 5.0 or 3.5tt the 2.7 will already be a big upgrade at 325 and 375 with a huge improvement in mpg. Is there something I'm missing though? Would the 2.7 not live up to my 5.4 in someway other than v8 sound? For my first new truck I don't want to regret my decision.
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justjimmy (09-09-2014)
09-09-2014, 04:15 PM
#24
As much as I love turbos, I've had turbo cars and really enjoy the boost. I may end up going with the 5.0. I'm buying a truck for the long haul, many year ownership, I drive cars into the ground and they are usually worthless on trade in by the time I'm done with them. I just like the idea of playing with the V8 over the next 10+ years.
It's a close call really. the 2.7 just might blow me away and I'll go that way, but for now I'm still leaning 5.0.
It's a close call really. the 2.7 just might blow me away and I'll go that way, but for now I'm still leaning 5.0.
09-09-2014, 04:42 PM
#25
Member
Thread Starter
I'll be the first to admit that I've always been a v8 fanboy. For me though I will have a 2 hour 120 mile round trip commute and the projected mpg and power with the 2.7 is very interesting to me. I don't tow a whole lot but I use the bed of my truck all the time and need to get in and out of some sticky areas. Then again I'm looking at a super crew xlt with the fx4 and sports appearance package. Could this be too much weight for the 2.7? Won't know until a test drive. I've seen the power and mpg people are getting with 5 star tunes on the 3.5tt and I wouldn't be against that extra power. Do I need it? Probably not, do I want it? O yes. Can I convince the wife it's a good idea? Only time will tell haha.
09-09-2014, 04:46 PM
#26
I'll be the first to admit that I've always been a v8 fanboy. For me though I will have a 2 hour 120 mile round trip commute and the projected mpg and power with the 2.7 is very interesting to me. I don't tow a whole lot but I use the bed of my truck all the time and need to get in and out of some sticky areas. Then again I'm looking at a super crew xlt with the fx4 and sports appearance package. Could this be too much weight for the 2.7? Won't know until a test drive. I've seen the power and mpg people are getting with 5 star tunes on the 3.5tt and I wouldn't be against that extra power. Do I need it? Probably not, do I want it? O yes. Can I convince the wife it's a good idea? Only time will tell haha.
09-09-2014, 06:54 PM
#27
Senior Member
Making the Grade
As the first Ford EcoBoost engine makes its production debut, it has earned its stripes in Ford’s engine boot camp. It uses that same grade of 5W20 engine oil specified by Ford for gasoline engines, and oil changes are scheduled at the same 7,500-mile intervals, too.
“Ford customers can be sure that their new EcoBoost engine requires no special treatment for its reliable operation,” Shelby said. “EcoBoost owners can pull in their driveways and switch off just like any other engine, and there’s no special oil or shorter oil-change intervals. That means the owner can concentrate on enjoying the great performance and fuel economy.”
”
Where is this reference to 5W-20 oil for the EcoBoost coming from? From what I see in the 2014 F150 Owner's manual, the 3.5L Ecoboost recommended oil is 5W-30. All the other non boosted engines are 5W-20 though. See page 300 at the link below:
http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Fo...us_09_2013.pdf
09-09-2014, 07:46 PM
#28
Senior Member
^ I think I C/P the SHO's Ford PR. I'm trying to find the F150 Press release. The truck engine actually endured even more torture. Cycling -20 degrees to full throttle every 10 minutes for over 300 hours.
09-09-2014, 07:57 PM
#29
I think I prefer all that gas soaking everything on its way to the cylinder, way too many reports of heavy carbon buildup on pretty much every DI engine out there from Audi's notorious 4.2 in the old RS4 to Gm's 3.6 L V6 they are throwing in everything from the cadillacs to the new colorado light duty trucks.
Only exception so far has been Toyota, because they used an accessory spray of gas to help clean the valves.
Only exception so far has been Toyota, because they used an accessory spray of gas to help clean the valves.
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SuperCruzin (09-11-2014)
09-10-2014, 12:45 AM
#30
The Macho King
I think I prefer all that gas soaking everything on its way to the cylinder, way too many reports of heavy carbon buildup on pretty much every DI engine out there from Audi's notorious 4.2 in the old RS4 to Gm's 3.6 L V6 they are throwing in everything from the cadillacs to the new colorado light duty trucks.
Only exception so far has been Toyota, because they used an accessory spray of gas to help clean the valves.
Only exception so far has been Toyota, because they used an accessory spray of gas to help clean the valves.