A bit of info for those looking to build 300+hp 5.0L/302s
04-05-2015, 01:07 PM
#32
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Hopefully since my workload at the job has lightened up some, I'll be able to complete my final writeups soon.
However, I wanted to provide some part numbers and info for clarity since I might have confused a few individuals.
Regarding the IAC Bypass, it is a plate, not the actual IAC valve itself. The plate is mounted between the IAC valve and the throttle body. This allows more air into the engine at idle which eliminates the problem of having a surge at idle and otherwise good drivability outside of idle.
Two part numbers are:
Tomco: 8491
Ford: F2PZ-9F939-A
Edit: Normally, this is definitely required when upgrading the cam (in my opinion).
However, sometimes depending on your setup, you can do something as simple as upgrade the exhaust and your engine will surge at idle. This part will serve as the fix for that surging idle in this scenario as well.
However, I wanted to provide some part numbers and info for clarity since I might have confused a few individuals.
Regarding the IAC Bypass, it is a plate, not the actual IAC valve itself. The plate is mounted between the IAC valve and the throttle body. This allows more air into the engine at idle which eliminates the problem of having a surge at idle and otherwise good drivability outside of idle.
Two part numbers are:
Tomco: 8491
Ford: F2PZ-9F939-A
Edit: Normally, this is definitely required when upgrading the cam (in my opinion).
However, sometimes depending on your setup, you can do something as simple as upgrade the exhaust and your engine will surge at idle. This part will serve as the fix for that surging idle in this scenario as well.
Last edited by qdeezie; 04-05-2015 at 01:11 PM.
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SaltEater (11-17-2017)
07-02-2015, 08:13 PM
#33
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A bit of info for those looking to build 300+hp 5.0L/302s
When u say to replace the tranny,do we need to fully replace it? Or just upgrade the gears and clutch assembly?
07-02-2015, 08:29 PM
#34
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My transmission post was geared more so towards automatic transmissions, but I'd say to research your manual transmission to see what is the maximum torque rating for it. If it's not rated to I'd say about 400 ft/lbs torque, you might want to upgrade at least the gears. With regards to the clutch, just go with a quality brand and you should be ok.
07-05-2015, 12:50 AM
#35
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I promised months ago that I’d give a segment on machine shops and here it is.
Rule #1 when dealing with machine shops is that all machine shops are not created equal. What I mean by this is that there are some services that you’ll request such as line honing that some shops will try to talk you out of.
Also, there are lots of machine shops that won’t clean your parts. They will literally do the work you requested and pass your part right back over to you. Once upon a time, I took a set of heads to a machine shop to have new valve springs installed, a valve job and to get the heads resurfaced. That is literally what they did. The outer surface of the heads was still rusty and they didn’t even clean the valve cover mating surface. I'm used to my heads (and every single engine part for that matter) looking brand new when I get them back.
With this being said, if you are new to a machine shop, ask to look at some of their finished products such as engine blocks and heads prior to dropping your stuff off. If the part looks so clean you could eat off of it, you’ve probably found a good machine shop.
Sometimes you might even have to split work up between machine shops.
Some may do awesome head work, but may not have the tooling to do what you need for your block.
With that being said, here are a few things you should have consider having done:
1) Hone or bore cylinders. If your cylinders have to be bored, you will need to bring the pistons and connecting rods that you’ll be using to the machine shop with you. This way, they can bore it to exact tolerances.
2) Have connecting rods reconditioned (I normally let them determine if they need anything done) and install rod bolts.
3) Press pistons onto connecting rods.
4) Check crankshaft journals and if necessary, have it machined so that you can use undersized bearings.
5) Balance rotating assembly.
6) On your heads (if reusing heads): valve job, new valve stem seals, new springs, valve guides, check and possibly resurface heads. I normally provide my own valve stem seals and springs. This way, I know exactly what I’m working with.
7) Line hone block: This is one that lots of machine shops will attempt to talk you out of for some reason. This will ensure that there is no binding on the crankshaft. If they check it and it is found that a line hone is not needed, that is one thing, but to not do it and not check is another. This could make your crankshaft bind once you torque it down. After you torque your crankshaft down, see how freely it spins. If it spins freely, you’re in business. If it doesn’t, pull it out and take the block back to the machine shop. Also, ensure you’re installing the main caps with the arrows facing forward. If you don’t, your crankshaft will most certainly bind up.
8) Install camshaft bearings. I normally buy my own and provide it to them.
9) Install expansion (freeze) and oil galley plugs. I normally buy my own and provide it to them.
10) After you get your engine block back from the machine shop, wash it out on your own before installing any parts. I literally take my engine block to a car wash to clean it with the pressure washer. After I'm done pressure washing, I spray the bores down with penetrating oil afterwards to ensure that there is no rust that will generate to impact piston ring sealing. I also blow the block off really good with my air blow gun nozzle attachment on my air compressor. I'm sure there's some YouTube videos and threads on other forums about this topic.
As I mentioned earlier, it wouldn’t be a bad idea if you bought a tap and cleaned the threads on your engine block yourself prior to taking it to the machine shop. This includes timing cover threads, cylinder head thread and main cap threads. ARP makes a dedicated tap to clean threads, but me being cheap, I use a regular tap and penetrating oil to clean out the threads.
Going back to what I said earlier about all machine shops not being created equal, this is a big deal. I am in the process of looking for a local worthwhile machine shop (you’d think it would be easy seeing that I’m in the NASCAR capital), but as of right now, I drive 200 miles to the machine shop I know and trust. I’ve tried a few local ones and I was disappointed. This is not me being overly peculiar, it’s just me wanting the work I’m paying for done right. I’ve also heard of other guys driving even further than I do to a machine shop that they trust.
Two final things I'd like to add. 1) Before you take the engine block to the machine shop, if the engine is greasy and dirty, take it somewhere like a car wash and clean it up some. It makes life a lot easier and less dirty when it comes to transporting it to the machine shop. 2) Find out how long the machine shop's waiting list is. It would suck to drop your engine block off and expect it back in a few weeks, when they have a 6 or 9 month backlog that you didn't know about. Really good machine shops are known to have backlogs, so take this into consideration.
Rule #1 when dealing with machine shops is that all machine shops are not created equal. What I mean by this is that there are some services that you’ll request such as line honing that some shops will try to talk you out of.
Also, there are lots of machine shops that won’t clean your parts. They will literally do the work you requested and pass your part right back over to you. Once upon a time, I took a set of heads to a machine shop to have new valve springs installed, a valve job and to get the heads resurfaced. That is literally what they did. The outer surface of the heads was still rusty and they didn’t even clean the valve cover mating surface. I'm used to my heads (and every single engine part for that matter) looking brand new when I get them back.
With this being said, if you are new to a machine shop, ask to look at some of their finished products such as engine blocks and heads prior to dropping your stuff off. If the part looks so clean you could eat off of it, you’ve probably found a good machine shop.
Sometimes you might even have to split work up between machine shops.
Some may do awesome head work, but may not have the tooling to do what you need for your block.
With that being said, here are a few things you should have consider having done:
1) Hone or bore cylinders. If your cylinders have to be bored, you will need to bring the pistons and connecting rods that you’ll be using to the machine shop with you. This way, they can bore it to exact tolerances.
2) Have connecting rods reconditioned (I normally let them determine if they need anything done) and install rod bolts.
3) Press pistons onto connecting rods.
4) Check crankshaft journals and if necessary, have it machined so that you can use undersized bearings.
5) Balance rotating assembly.
6) On your heads (if reusing heads): valve job, new valve stem seals, new springs, valve guides, check and possibly resurface heads. I normally provide my own valve stem seals and springs. This way, I know exactly what I’m working with.
7) Line hone block: This is one that lots of machine shops will attempt to talk you out of for some reason. This will ensure that there is no binding on the crankshaft. If they check it and it is found that a line hone is not needed, that is one thing, but to not do it and not check is another. This could make your crankshaft bind once you torque it down. After you torque your crankshaft down, see how freely it spins. If it spins freely, you’re in business. If it doesn’t, pull it out and take the block back to the machine shop. Also, ensure you’re installing the main caps with the arrows facing forward. If you don’t, your crankshaft will most certainly bind up.
8) Install camshaft bearings. I normally buy my own and provide it to them.
9) Install expansion (freeze) and oil galley plugs. I normally buy my own and provide it to them.
10) After you get your engine block back from the machine shop, wash it out on your own before installing any parts. I literally take my engine block to a car wash to clean it with the pressure washer. After I'm done pressure washing, I spray the bores down with penetrating oil afterwards to ensure that there is no rust that will generate to impact piston ring sealing. I also blow the block off really good with my air blow gun nozzle attachment on my air compressor. I'm sure there's some YouTube videos and threads on other forums about this topic.
As I mentioned earlier, it wouldn’t be a bad idea if you bought a tap and cleaned the threads on your engine block yourself prior to taking it to the machine shop. This includes timing cover threads, cylinder head thread and main cap threads. ARP makes a dedicated tap to clean threads, but me being cheap, I use a regular tap and penetrating oil to clean out the threads.
Going back to what I said earlier about all machine shops not being created equal, this is a big deal. I am in the process of looking for a local worthwhile machine shop (you’d think it would be easy seeing that I’m in the NASCAR capital), but as of right now, I drive 200 miles to the machine shop I know and trust. I’ve tried a few local ones and I was disappointed. This is not me being overly peculiar, it’s just me wanting the work I’m paying for done right. I’ve also heard of other guys driving even further than I do to a machine shop that they trust.
Two final things I'd like to add. 1) Before you take the engine block to the machine shop, if the engine is greasy and dirty, take it somewhere like a car wash and clean it up some. It makes life a lot easier and less dirty when it comes to transporting it to the machine shop. 2) Find out how long the machine shop's waiting list is. It would suck to drop your engine block off and expect it back in a few weeks, when they have a 6 or 9 month backlog that you didn't know about. Really good machine shops are known to have backlogs, so take this into consideration.
Last edited by qdeezie; 07-05-2015 at 07:52 AM.
07-09-2015, 07:09 PM
#36
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rebuit 302
Hi everyone , I just joined. I love this thread about upgrading a 302.
My question is this. I am in need of a engine replacement. when i look around for crate motors all i find are high horsepower engines, All i really want to do is improve the engine that i have. Then i found your thread, It is exactly the kind of engine I'm looking for. Unfortunately i have never tinkered that deep into a engine and I'm very nervous even trying to attempt the build.
So, Is there a crate motor out there that falls into the guidelines that you describe in your thread?
Any help would be useful.
Thank you
1996 f150 4x4
My question is this. I am in need of a engine replacement. when i look around for crate motors all i find are high horsepower engines, All i really want to do is improve the engine that i have. Then i found your thread, It is exactly the kind of engine I'm looking for. Unfortunately i have never tinkered that deep into a engine and I'm very nervous even trying to attempt the build.
So, Is there a crate motor out there that falls into the guidelines that you describe in your thread?
Any help would be useful.
Thank you
1996 f150 4x4
10-17-2015, 08:19 PM
#37
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Bump.
My response is way late, but I'd say search online and look at maybe a website such as Fordstrokers.com or order the parts I've mentioned in this thread and see what your local machine shop can do.
My response is way late, but I'd say search online and look at maybe a website such as Fordstrokers.com or order the parts I've mentioned in this thread and see what your local machine shop can do.
10-17-2015, 09:50 PM
#38
I say if lack of mechanical experience is what's holding you up from upgrading your engine, I would just buy the parts and pay a mechanic to install them. It would probably still be cheaper than a crate motor.
10-18-2015, 10:48 AM
#40
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Header Bolts:
I’ll be touching on headers directly in a future post, but with regards to the header bolts, before ordering header bolts, you need to measure the depth of the bolt hole and the thickness of the header flange to determine how long your header bolts need to be.
I’ve observed that SBF header bolts usually are sold with an Under Head Length (UHL) of 3/4”. However, if you measure the depth of the holes the bolts will be going in along with the thickness of the header flange, sometimes, it will exceed an inch. What I am getting at is you should order the proper length head bolts instead of one size fits all. If your measurement is an inch or more, order the 1 inch long bolts. If it is shorter than an inch, then go with the 3/4" bolts. More thread contact = a more secure fit.
Even if your headers came with bolts, you should still measure it. The way I measure mine is I use two of the regular 3/4" bolts and secure the header to the head. Then I stick one of those red brake cleaner/carb cleaner straws in a few of the holes to see how deep it is and measure it. On my truck, it came out to be over an inch.
Hopefully, this makes sense. I’ll leave some part numbers to consider:
1) ARP Header Bolts | 3/4" UHL | ARP 100-1108 | 16 Pieces
2) ARP Header Bolts | 1" UHL | ARP 100-1110 | 16 Pieces
I’ll be touching on headers directly in a future post, but with regards to the header bolts, before ordering header bolts, you need to measure the depth of the bolt hole and the thickness of the header flange to determine how long your header bolts need to be.
I’ve observed that SBF header bolts usually are sold with an Under Head Length (UHL) of 3/4”. However, if you measure the depth of the holes the bolts will be going in along with the thickness of the header flange, sometimes, it will exceed an inch. What I am getting at is you should order the proper length head bolts instead of one size fits all. If your measurement is an inch or more, order the 1 inch long bolts. If it is shorter than an inch, then go with the 3/4" bolts. More thread contact = a more secure fit.
Even if your headers came with bolts, you should still measure it. The way I measure mine is I use two of the regular 3/4" bolts and secure the header to the head. Then I stick one of those red brake cleaner/carb cleaner straws in a few of the holes to see how deep it is and measure it. On my truck, it came out to be over an inch.
Hopefully, this makes sense. I’ll leave some part numbers to consider:
1) ARP Header Bolts | 3/4" UHL | ARP 100-1108 | 16 Pieces
2) ARP Header Bolts | 1" UHL | ARP 100-1110 | 16 Pieces
Exhaust
I won’t cover the entire exhaust system, because exhaust is one of those things that leaves the door open for debate and I want to avoid that with this thread. Maybe in a different thread we can discuss exhaust.
However, I will say this about the exhaust. If you are using headers, you absolutely must check the flange on a flat surface (such as a kitchen table, counter top or even a garage floor) to ensure the surface is true. I don’t know exactly what the reason is, but lots of header manufacturers send their products out the door and the surface is not true.
If your surface is not true, you can either belt sand it true or take it to a machine shop and let them machine the surface so that it is true. Or send it back for a replacement.
A surface that is not true is the most common source of leaks between the header and the engine and the majority of people don’t even know it. The last set of headers I bought literally wobbled when I laid the flange on a flat surface. It was at least 1/8” of play. I had them machined flat and no leaks to speak of.
I won’t cover the entire exhaust system, because exhaust is one of those things that leaves the door open for debate and I want to avoid that with this thread. Maybe in a different thread we can discuss exhaust.
However, I will say this about the exhaust. If you are using headers, you absolutely must check the flange on a flat surface (such as a kitchen table, counter top or even a garage floor) to ensure the surface is true. I don’t know exactly what the reason is, but lots of header manufacturers send their products out the door and the surface is not true.
If your surface is not true, you can either belt sand it true or take it to a machine shop and let them machine the surface so that it is true. Or send it back for a replacement.
A surface that is not true is the most common source of leaks between the header and the engine and the majority of people don’t even know it. The last set of headers I bought literally wobbled when I laid the flange on a flat surface. It was at least 1/8” of play. I had them machined flat and no leaks to speak of.
As for brands of gasket, personally, it depends on the application. If you are going with a stock or GT40 (or GT40p) head, a regular Fel-Pro gasket should be sufficient.
If you have an aftermarket head or want a good performance gasket for your headers, I feel like you can't go wrong with Mr. Gasket 5930. That is assuming you have square port headers. I'm using these with no leaks to report.
Basically, a stock replacement or the aforementioned Mr. Gasket are good choices, but once again, if you are using headers, the surface of the headers must be true or you're going to have leaks.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by qdeezie; 10-18-2015 at 11:02 AM.